Kamala Harris

[Xanthangum]

... has been selected as Joe Biden's running mate.

Important for all sorts of reasons I feel

twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1293281838337871875?s=20

[FireUnderTheHand]

@ListeningQuietly

Fire
As you do not like any of the options of offer
who would be your choices for President, VP and Secretary of state?

Hey Listening - wasn't ignoring you, just saw your questions.

P: Tulsi Gabbard

VP: Jo Jorgensen (or Andrew Yang, choices different in theory and intended practice for different but equally important reasons)

SOS: Pete Buttigieg (or Elizabeth Warren , choices different in theory and intended practice for different but equally important reasons)

I have my reasons for each but don't want to bog down KH's thread.

[ListeningQuietly]

Fireunder
An interesting list.
And there is a fair chance that your two SOS picks will get drawn into the team after the election

Just gotta make sure that we ALL throw the mud at the GOP
not each other

[FireUnderTheHand]

@Iminthewrongstory

Really shocked by some of these comments. No one with a job with great responsibilities and a public record is going to get everything right and Kamala Harris (or any man who would not be equally raked over the coals) hasn't. But here is, I believe, a very fair assessment of her work by someone who often worked on the opposing side to her.

eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2020/08/10/kamala-harris-progressive-pioneer-san-francisco-da-column/3334668001/

Appalled by the 'slept her way to the top' nonsense - on a feminist forum. As one article pointed out Willie Brown (who no one is talking about now except for his connection to Harris) did a lot more to promote the career of, say, Gavin Newsom, the current governor of California, than he ever did for Kamala.

She is bright and energetic and will work hard. But yeah, performative outrage is so much more fun.

Oh give me a break - my position has nothing to do with her sex (honestly I wish she were a top choice because it would be great for optics and she is undeniably brilliant and capable).

I can throw dirt at Trump and Biden all day long... I have been very fair to KH - I see her as she is - a brilliant and accomplished professional with hypocritical tendencies (easily verified through her public record - my position is based on her record not my feelings) and an adherence to TWAW. I don't care how energetic she is - what a weird way to describe a potential VP considering none of the possible VP candidates are any less 'energetic' would you use that description for a male candidate? I'm intelligent, accomplished, energetic (cringe) but I am nowhere near suited for US VP (even though I definitely have a great understanding of economics and am able to put myself in other's shoes... i.e. Chesterton's fence and all that).

And who cares what her former opposition said... again opinions override facts when it benefits, eh? I base my political stances on facts not feelings or opinions.

[FireUnderTheHand]

@ListeningQuietly

Fireunder
An interesting list.
And there is a fair chance that your two SOS picks will get drawn into the team after the election

Just gotta make sure that we ALL throw the mud at the GOP
not each other

Honestly Biden/Harris w/Buttigieg or Warren is not necessarily a good prospect... TWAW and all that (Buttigieg and Warren trot out TWAW too).

I'm not looking to throw mud at anybody I just want a decent candidate for the first time in my voting career.

And for the record, Clinton bashed the shit out of Gabbard with her 'Russian installed candidate' rhetoric - utterly reprehensible of her. Otherwise Gabbard might still be in the running instead she was ignored and thrown in the 'traitor' box after being a military combat volunteer and forgoing running for another term to continue to serve her military role. Gabbard is an American hero unlike current POTUS, unlike Biden or Harris - and certainly unlike Clinton.

The hypocrisy on the left is staggering from Biden to KH... again just like their right counterparts.

[Iminthewrongstory]

When the age of the candidates has been an issue (as was Hillary's 'health' in the last campaign) and when Trump has notably derided other candidates about their energy (surely someone as well-informed as you recalls that Jeb Bush was deemed 'low-energy Jeb') energy is an issue. How strange you find it cringe-worthy, but there you go.

If you dismiss an article full of facts, with a 'who cares' that's fine. I have no illusion I will convince you of anything, but, on a public forum, I thought it was worth pointing out some positives.

[Dervel]

@ListeningQuietly but you actually kinda are excusing Biden if you want to hand him the keys to the White House. It’s also clear that even the Democratic Party isn’t committed to getting Trump out of the White House by fielding such an unimpressive candidate.

One of the biggest criticisms levelled at Trump is his attitude towards women, if you are actually tolerating that behaviour in Biden as long as he can publicly keep his attitude towards women respectful, but is free to treat them in private how he wishes then I’m afraid that criticism of Trump evaporates also.

[ListeningQuietly]

Dervel
You have to start from where you are
not where you want to be

get Trump out
THEN sort the other issues

I am far more worried about Climate change than I am about historic misbehaviour by an old man.

[ListeningQuietly]

PS
Women constantly attacking other women is why men are in charge and TWAW got as far as it has

[Dervel]

@ListeningQuietly I agree, that’s why I’d personally vote for whichever third party provided an ethical alternative. We have to stop this problem that has creeped into the democratic process of always having to choose the lesser of two evils. At least Trumps flaws are well out in the open and can be opposed in the light of day.

[FireUnderTheHand]

@Iminthewrongstory

When the age of the candidates has been an issue (as was Hillary's 'health' in the last campaign) and when Trump has notably derided other candidates about their energy (surely someone as well-informed as you recalls that Jeb Bush was deemed 'low-energy Jeb') energy is an issue. How strange you find it cringe-worthy, but there you go.

If you dismiss an article full of facts, with a 'who cares' that's fine. I have no illusion I will convince you of anything, but, on a public forum, I thought it was worth pointing out some positives.

Regarding past use of energetic (personally don't like it as I find it to be a cop-out when there are so many other things to focus on) Trump's opinion on anyone's health or age or energy is irrelevant - look who's talking ya know? I mean Trump is older, can't string a coherent sentence together, isn't energetic, has that old 'white' US man underlying racism and xenophobia (that's pretty common amongst older 'white' men you'd encounter in this country - from coast to coast) ... he and Biden are copies of each other in different skin in that respect.

Biden:

“If you have a problem figuring out whether you’re for me or Trump, then you ain’t black.” (direct quote)

AND

"By the way, what you all know but most people don't know, unlike the African American community with notable exceptions, the Latino community is an incredibly diverse community with incredibly different attitudes about different things. You go to Florida, you find a very different attitude about immigration in certain places than you do when you're in Arizona. So it's a very different, a very diverse community," (direct quote)

AND

“When Trump rolled over for the Chinese, he took their word for it. Trump praised the Chinese 15 times in January and February as the coronavirus spread across the world.” (From a Biden ad, not direct quote)

You can't deny Joe's perspective when it comes out of his own mouth. Considering there is a huge uptick in xenophobic and racist attacks on Asian Americans, how moronic due you have to be to think making a xenophobic statement like that in an ad for a POTUS candidate is a good idea?

I mean hello? Is there anybody there? How tone deaf can he be? Biden like many other white Democrats take minority voters for granted and attempt to define those groups according to their 'whiteness' or lack thereof like their % of 'whiteness' presentation is what makes them . Democrats and Republicans alike seem to assume that minorities are Uncle Toms. No opinion just facts based on their vernacular.

I read the incredibly short op-ed about when KH was DA and to say it was full of facts is a material misrepresentation... the article cited low-weight marijuana prosecution, and trafficking (which she failed to attack once becoming AG). The article is hardly 'full of facts'. The story of her AG role is starkly different in comparison.

[FireUnderTheHand]

[quote Dervel]@ListeningQuietly but you actually kinda are excusing Biden if you want to hand him the keys to the White House. It’s also clear that even the Democratic Party isn’t committed to getting Trump out of the White House by fielding such an unimpressive candidate.

One of the biggest criticisms levelled at Trump is his attitude towards women, if you are actually tolerating that behaviour in Biden as long as he can publicly keep his attitude towards women respectful, but is free to treat them in private how he wishes then I’m afraid that criticism of Trump evaporates also.[/quote]
Yes, exactly Dervel.

Biden has mistreated women (and girls) in public and in private if you believe his accusers (I do personally)... Anita Hill, Abuse accusers, children and women he touches/smells in a way that makes my skin crawl on in film in public and private. I'm sorry (not sorry) that my survivor instinct will not allow me to engage in the cognitive dissonance (it would require of me) to vote for him.

Trump is accused of abusing adult women (which I also believe). I couldn't vote for him for that reason alone forgetting the plethora of policy-related reasons.

If we say it is okay for one man (even if he is the lesser of the evils) to act like that then we are saying it is okay for all men to act like that. It isn't okay, it just isn't.

[feellikeanalien]

I still can't believe that in a country the size of America the only candidates for president they could come up with are Trump and Biden.

[startrek90]

I get what you're saying about Biden not being the best candidate but you have to face reality. A significant portion of the US electorate will NEVER vote for a woman, a gay man, an ethnic minority. They just won't. It won't matter if they are veterans, intelligent or qualified they just won't. Biden is the safest choice (even if right of centre) he can win the electoral college. Gabbard would never be able to (at least without Russian help and do you really want that again?)

Harris again is the safest choice out of all the potential VP candidates (I wanted Stacey Abrams).

Given everything Trump has done and everything he will do you have to take the safest option, there is too much at stake. He could literally kill the planet leaving our children fighting for water and food.

Voting a third option is a cop out and the GOP know it hence why they are doing everything they can to get Kanye west on the ballot.

I imagine certain other powers are probably working on Sanders and Gabbard to get them to run too. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and hold your nose and choose the least worst option.

The building is on fire and we are in free fall, now is not the time for a protest vote. Trump and McConnell need to leave otherwise the world is fucked.

[FireUnderTheHand]

[quote Dervel]@ListeningQuietly I agree, that’s why I’d personally vote for whichever third party provided an ethical alternative. We have to stop this problem that has creeped into the democratic process of always having to choose the lesser of two evils. At least Trumps flaws are well out in the open and can be opposed in the light of day.[/quote]
I 100% agree with you here Dervel.

[IHeartSusanDey]

@ListeningQuietly

PS
Women constantly attacking other women is why men are in charge and TWAW got as far as it has

No, that really isn't why. Not even close.

[Dervel]

What people forget it was successions of Presidents of either stripe that LED to Trump. Trump is just as much as product of the Democratic Party as much as anything else! Successions of virtue signalling Presidents, tone deaf to the needs of the people. I have zero faith they have any other skin in the game other than pandering to special interests in the financial sector. Literally all they have going for them is a veneer of respectability, scratch the surface and they are just as corrupt and self serving as Trump. Meaningful change cannot occur until that fact is faced and factored in.

[ListeningQuietly]

Well maybe if the USA dealt with gerrymandering
and voter suppression
it might get better results

but hey
voting Libertarian will make it all OK

[FireUnderTheHand]

I get what you're saying about Biden not being the best candidate but you have to face reality. A significant portion of the US electorate will NEVER vote for a woman, a gay man, an ethnic minority.

You are correct, however...

I didn't realize that Obama is 'white'? He certainly wasn't 'white enough' to avoid birther conspiracies or to avoid Michelle's horrible disgusting heart-wrenching vomit-inducing abuse that she (and he but not as bad) have endured every since the beginning of the original campaign for POTUS (and they both handle it with such class and grace - I don't know if I could rise to that level, one can only hope).

"When they go low, we go high."

The electorate track record is poor yes but Obama maxed out his terms as POTUS and I believe that says a lot. And if more citizens would vote we would see a better outcome but (I believe) most are so disenfranchised with the entirety of government that they have given up. If there were better candidates (that didn't get attacked from their own party i.e. Gabbard) we may see a better voter turnout.

I've over the status quo, I'm over the overt and covert sexism, xenophobia, and racism. I'm over all of this crap. And my vote doesn't actually impact shit - but it is my voice and I am going to use it the way I find to be best based on facts (not feelings or hopes) and without subjecting myself to self-forced cognitive dissonance.

[startrek90]

You're right Obama did win the presidency but who won the senate and Congress? What happened immediately after the result was called?Obama was stalled for 8 years as well as being subjected to some of the worst abuse any president has been subjected too.

When Obama won there was this great belief that the US had moved away from its racism but it was bullshit. The events of the last 10 years have shown that at least 40% of the American electorate do not respect or tolerate anything other than a straight white old dude.

I am all for changing the system but you have to work with what you got and unfortunately you got the electoral college. You need the Whitehouse, Congress and the senate.

[Dervel]

@ListeningQuietly vote libertarian, communist or for the sugar plum fairy if you’re so inclined. I mean heck vote for Biden/Harris if that’s really your honest view. It’s your vote and crucial for you to use it in accordance with your own conscience. However colour me sad that in 2020, and on a feminist board no less someone can earnestly and unironically advocate for a man stood accused of sexually abusing women. Strange times indeed.

I realise we’ve gotten pretty heated in this debate, and I don’t want you coming away thinking I don’t respect you, because I actually do, very much. I think political engagement is very important in the world and I admire you for taking the time to express your view.

I also appreciate that where you are coming from very likely stems for a love of all the things that Trump threatens, which again I respect you greatly for. I am just sorry I cannot cross the moral/ethical rubicon to support Biden.

Also just to clarify which I know I have not articulated at all is that my vitriol is primarily aimed at Biden more than Harris. She may be weighing up that she could do a lot more good as VP, than refusing the position on point of principle, although I do find the act of throwing her lot in with him a massive red flag, and indicator of carrying on business as usual. However it is impossible my misgiving could be proved wrong.

Anyway once again thank you for the discussion, I wish you well.

[Dervel]

Possible not impossible*

[FireUnderTheHand]

@ListeningQuietly

Well maybe if the USA dealt with gerrymandering
and voter suppression
it might get better results

but hey
voting Libertarian will make it all OK

Um... 21 states currently engage in gerrymandering, so 42% which is awful but change is on the horizon.

"The Supreme Court of the United States has affirmed in Miller v. Johnson (1995) that racial gerrymandering is a violation of constitutional rights and upheld decisions against redistricting purposely devised based on race."

and

SCOTUS ruled in 2019 that federal judges do not have the authority to redraw election districts that are overly skewed in favor of one political party due to map manipulation known as “gerrymandering.”

We are dealing with it, where have you been? Legislature is in place and it is in the hands of the enforcers to ensure that the law isn't broken and when it is that it is handled in accordance with the law. One of our problems with this is that as a nation we always are presented with a choice of 'evils' past the primaries meaning that (so far) all candidates are enriched by these practices (Dems and Reps). Look at MD, NM, VA... Reps were gerrymandered out just like Reps gerrymander out Dems. They are sides to the same dirty coin.

I was very active in my state (Florida) back when we were fighting gerrymandering, we as residents of FL overwhelmingly voted to abolish gerrymandering here in 2010. Our state constitution has an amendment that now prohibits gerrymandering but what the state SC found was that redistricting was tampered with to favor Republicans and have taken an active role in correcting these errors since the House and Senate couldn't come to a consensus.

There is no instant gratification in actual sustainable change - it can take decades.

"After record voter turnout in 2008, more than 30 states introduced voter suppression legislation in 2011: 16 states passed such measures." ACLU

Early voting helps reduce voter suppression and some states (including mine) has passed laws I am 100% against reducing early voting windows but early voting is still available.

Registering to vote is ridiculously easy and required to vote - online (39 states including DC), in person (state or local election office, DMV, armed forces recruitment centers, state and county assistance centers e.g. SNAP and WIC), via mail (all states), via mail and online for out-of-country. If you can get services assistance you can get registered to vote (it isn't a leap unless you are avoiding the step).

"Fifteen percent of Americans who earn less than $35,000 a year do not have a government-issued photo ID." ACLU

I find the above odd as getting a government issued ID is ridiculously easy and is required for most jobs, so if you are employed by a company you have to produce several forms of acceptable ID from SS cards to passports to General IDs and DLs. You have to have a SS number to or TIN to file and pay taxes - even when self-employed. So it blows my mind that there are people walking around with no gov. ID if they are generating income ($12,760 is poverty level for individuals and most of those in the $12k - $35k range are employed by companies in some capacity at least part-time). It just doesn't math out or seem logical for me that there are that many earners that don't have gov ID especially since more than half of the low wage earners are employed at minimum wage.

[ListeningQuietly]

Fireunder
Until the entire USA has a politically independent
boundary commission
and
voter registration system
as per the rules of the EU to count as a free and fair election
I will consider every USA state suspect
even the one I vote in

[ListeningQuietly]

Dervel
I think you are rather missing the point.
The Trans agenda being promoted by the far right is putting women's rights at greater risk than they have been in the last 30 years

Biden is a dinosaur
but one who is likely to appoint a decent team
Harris is young enough to change

I admit that I find the pearl clutching of some me too historic attackers
to be far more damaging than a simple
he's an old git stopgap
and a constructive SUPPORTIVE engagement with the generation who will follow them

What went on in the 70's was wrong
OK
now look forwards
not back

[FireUnderTheHand]

@ListeningQuietly

Fireunder
Until the entire USA has a politically independent
boundary commission
and
voter registration system
as per the rules of the EU to count as a free and fair election
I will consider every USA state suspect
even the one I vote in

It is highly unlikely that the US will adopt EU guidelines, appoint a federal level boundary commission, and adopt the EU voter registration system (which in all fairness has its own flaws).

I consider all US states suspect - regardless of their records and regard the federal system in a less fair light. The federal government consistently screws things up and is incredibly wasteful. The IRS is a disaster, VA is a life-crushing disaster for many veterans, DHS: CBP/ICE/FEMA/TSA/Secret Service is rife with ineptitude. Our federal government is a parade of inflated egos and moronic behavior bolstering and worshiping big business to the detriment of our citizens/refugees/immigrants. But I am active at the local and state level... I do what I can to help the US be a place I can be proud of (hopefully) in the future.

The EU is made up of 28 countries (with their own governments, education systems/policies, et al). Germany is the largest EU member currently with a population of 83,019,213 (2019). The largest country to adhere to EU guidelines (by population) is Germany, a country that is 25% of the US in population. France is the largest EU member by land mass at 551,695km2 which is 5.6% of the US in land mass. The US has a population of 328,239,523 (2019) and land mass of 9,833,517km2. Do you really think that the US (being of toddler age/development socially in comparison to most countries) with all of its downfalls can adopt and properly scale up systems/processes using a country with 75% lesser population (Germany) and a country with 94.4% lesser land mass (France) as guides for EU target compliance with those population and land mass governance perspectives in play? It just isn't possible right now, this country is not capable of adopting such policies maturely and properly.

Talk about starting from where we are... I mean I can't think of a less likely scenario than what you envision/desire. I get your point, I just don't think it is a pragmatic reality in my lifetime.