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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

One in 10 women and other people with a uterus of reproductive age have the disease.

185 replies

ListeningQuietly · 05/08/2020 14:09

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/aug/05/disgusting-study-rating-attractiveness-of-women-with-endometriosis-retracted-by-medical-journal

Should that sentence be in the article ?

OP posts:
PumbaasCucumbas · 05/08/2020 22:34

Great post EmmaGoldsmith

Quillink · 05/08/2020 23:02

YES. Thank you DanceLikeEmmaGoldman.

BatShite · 05/08/2020 23:47

Taking me ages to get through this thread..

We've got another mumsnetter above you saying that I'm wrong and mumsnetters do extend that courtesy to transpeople by calling them their preferred pronouns, despite the majority of posters on this, and other threads, saying they will not be told which pronoun to use

Eh..you know that mumsnetters are just singular people with differing opinions, and there is no 'MN consensus' or anything on any topic!? I do find it odd, how people seem to think that if one, two, or many mumsetters think something, this means all of them do. NAMNALT. Each differing thread will bring out a differing range of opinions, based on whos online and who facies replying to it tbh..

But I think, from years of talking about this topic, its still the majority who will use the wrong pronouns in order to make trans people feel more comfortable. I do, however I simply cannot bring myself to use her for the likes of rapists (which seems a bit hypocritical, as thats basically me saying 'I am willing to lie to make you feel better but only if you are a good person). Many of those who will no longer lie..did lie about it for a long time, its only the demands of transactivists, and learning more about 'queer theory'..and talking to trassexual people in some cases, that have made them stop. Though I will lie, I do understand where those who will not are coming from, especially with how much every piece of language relating to female people is being butchered these days. Never see tranactivists kicking off with men/mens charities about using the word man for some reason..odd really. As usual, only women are targetted. Similar to how when MEN physically attack transwomen, its blamed on feminists, as those nasty feminists have influenced these violent men into being violent. Because of course, violent men always listen to what feminists have to say and act how feminists would want them to, thats why so much male violence is a part of so many womens daily lives Hmm

Transactivists claim you cannot know someones sex by looking at them. Odd how they always seem to know which people to abuse, ad they also know which tras people to shove to the bottom of the pile (ie. its always about centreing transwomen). The obsession with genitals thing is bonkers btw, theres so much more to sex than genitals, and accusing feminists of being focussed on genitals is, again, more DARVO. They seem to think its some huge 'gotchya' when talking about sex segregated areas, if they strawman this imaginary want of feminists, of people on changing room doors who check genitals on the way in. Weird fantasy, in the huge majority of cases, sex is massively obvious, and anyone who claims otherwise is lying to themselves for whatever reason. Wome might be able to tell sex from a glance easier than men, it does seem that way anecdotally. This is possibly evolution in action, women need to know who is male for their own safety.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 05/08/2020 23:53

Yep. What Emma Goldman said.

Quillink · 05/08/2020 23:54

Women and transmen may be biologically the same, but they dont see themselves as the same group.

Bit late now, but I absolutely do see women and transmen as the same group. Adult females (women). I see men and transwomen as the same group. Adult males.

Like many people, my brain reads transwomen as just another man. And transmen as just another woman. Even if it were possible to alter that, what would be the benefit to me and the vast majority of women and girls in doing so?

nepeta · 05/08/2020 23:57

The other day I was going through old books I had bought on second wave feminism from places which sell used books, to see what to recycle to get more space. While dusting one book it fell open on a page with the title Fighting For Women's Rights or something similar with 'women's rights' in it.

That made me sit for a while thinking about what 'women's rights' would mean now the word 'woman' has been repurposed or recycled to mean only an inner, abstract feeling of being a woman, with no basis on what someone's biological sex actually might be.

I find it quite hard to see why that newly defined group would deserve any special attention to its rights at all. The term referred to the rights of female-bodied people and those who looked female-bodied to others even if they were not. It is that group which is legally under a male guardianship all their lives in Saudi Arabia, and it is that group which the catholic church won't let into priesthood. It is that group which experiences sex-based discrimination at work and it is also mostly that group which is the victim of rapes (outside prisons) and also of sexual harassment etc.

So if we go with the new definition of womanhood (what IS that inner feeling of womanhood based on when it is not allowed to be based on being biologically female?) it is hard to see how to even address sexism or the plight of women (old definition) in so many countries still.

To me this is about the problem of being so kind that we just hand over all our rights. It's not only about the medical context but about all contexts where biological sex matters. I have been willing to be inclusive and to compromise, but now it looks like my rights are going to be compromised away altogether. Even 'female' is not allowed to refer to biology.

HPFA · 06/08/2020 09:16

And here is ProstateCancer UK going about their business of discussing "men's" cancers.

twitter.com/ProstateUK

It's hard to know to expose the hypocrisy without drawing down the hounds of hell on blameless men's health charities. But it's also infuriating to see the blatant double standards.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 06/08/2020 10:59

Obesity is something you chose. Whether you like it or not, you chose to overeat or not do enough exercise.

This is a crock. No one actively chooses to live their lives feeling unhealthy and uncomfortable, or be overweight. An addiction to food (mainly sugar) encroaches gradually and usually has some underlying psychological cause, as does any other form of substance addiction. To suggest that this is owing to 'greed', or personal choice, or any of the other myriad objections usually trotted out in the face of addiction, is coming from a place of ignorance.

Obesity and substance addiction are no more the fault of the sufferer than bodily dysphoria. It's a disease. Don't quote me, quote the WHO.

Coming back to the disease that is the topic of this thread, endometriosis. I've suffered with this for years. It defies belief that male-bodied people are scrapping over the spoils of a painful disorder which has cost me 10 years' infertility, 5 miscarriages, and the possibility of my DC's ever having a sibling. I was the woman on the 'Bodyform' ad, doubled up in agony on her bathroom floor. It's sheer misery, and in more than the immediately obvious sense.

The people claiming to challenge 'exclusivity' over issues such as these must be barking mad. As for accusing those engaging in the 'cervix' argument (God, how sick and tired am I of that word) 'gatekeeping' cancer, of all the offensive misogynistic bilge I've seen permeating the net over the last two years, that one is right up there with 'weaponising trauma'.

Who actually WANTS to develop such conditions as these, or indeed 'gatekeep' them by redefining 'woman' and hence putting women at increased risk? Not too hard to find the answer to that. Women's experiences can, as ever, be sacrificed on the altar of Woke.

Would I identify out of the tortuous pain, physical and emotional, of endometriosis if I could? Damned right I would. Unfortunately this is my 'lived experience' and material, biological reality.

ListeningQuietly · 06/08/2020 11:06

Maybe we should park our tanks on their lawn
and ask politicians to Define what a MAN is

is it somebody with a prostate?
is it somebody with a Y chromosome?
what makes somebody a man?

as then by definition women are not that group
but anybody within that group can

  • join men only clubs
  • go to men only schools
  • inherit men only titles
OP posts:
JellySlice · 06/08/2020 13:48

Would I identify out of the tortuous pain, physical and emotional, of endometriosis if I could? Damned right I would. Unfortunately this is my 'lived experience' and material, biological reality.

According to the trans ideology, this is your female privilege. Having unfettered access to this experience as a result of your body being female makes you privileged over transwomen, who can never experience this truly female experience.

How can coveting such pain, such pointless, all-encompassing, joy-sapping pain, be anything but a mental illness or a personality disorder?

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