One in 10 women and other people with a uterus of reproductive age have the disease.

[ListeningQuietly]

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/aug/05/disgusting-study-rating-attractiveness-of-women-with-endometriosis-retracted-by-medical-journal

Should that sentence be in the article ?

[CharlieParley]

BobbieDraper

I have a young female in my family who identifies as trans who does not agree with you either.

That's because this redefinition of women is primarily neither pushed by not for women who desperately wish not to be women. It is done in the interest of men claiming womanhood.

As Buck Angel, a prominent trans rights campaigner, and female transsexual pointed out this week, females who identify as trans identify out of being women because they want nothing to do with everything that comes with being female, including and especially female biology. The suggestion that it isn't just women who menstruate, who get cervical cancer or endometriosis but that men do too is offensive to Buck and many of Buck's friends who made that same journey.

So this inclusive language is rejected as offensive by at least some of the females you are so concerned about. Do they matter?

And this inclusive language means that many women will not respond to health campaigns in the way they should. Because health campaigns need to reach the largest possible number of members of the particular group you're targeting.

There are far more women who will not respond to health campaigns using this language because it sacrifices comprehension to include a minute number of females.

Let's take a health campaign seeking to encourage women to have a smear test. I just filled in a survey testing three posters seeking to motivate women to book an appointment for a smear test. Two of them did not include the word woman at all.

That's because if we concede that the word woman is no longer enough to address all adult females and a poster doesn't have the space for a women and ... phrase, the next best solution from the inclusion handbook is to drop the word woman altogether.

Now instead of using the word woman, the cervix or people who have a cervix are referred to instead.

But research has shown that just under half of all women do not know what a cervix is and that they have one. Let's say you're aiming to get one million women to book an appointment, and let's assume (very unrealistically) that every woman who understands that this health campaign concerns her own health books an appointment.

That's 500,000 who do.
And 500,000 who don't.

The UK incidence rate of cervical cancer is just under 10 per 100,000.

50 women in that second group will develop cervical cancer and may die because the health campaign was not written in a way that addressed them.

1% of the population is estimated to be trans, so let's go with that figure.

A second health campaign is addressed to women, and it is understood by all one million targeted women.

If 1% are trans and all of these individuals feel excluded by this health campaign, then

999,000 book a test.
1000 don't.

A prevalence of 10 in 100,000 females developing cervical cancer means that - statistically speaking - there is a ten to one chance that not one of the 1000 will develop cervical cancer. But let's assume one does.

So, on the face of it, the first health campaign results in 50 women developing cervical cancer because they did not get tested. The second one results in one cancer case.

Now personally while I do understand that 49 lives saved makes the second campaign better, I don't believe that we need to accept that one case happening as a result of the second campaign. Every life is worth saving.

The solution is simple: we don't have to stop with the second campaign. Just as such campaigns are often available in a number of different languages to ensure we reach those for whom English is not their first language, we can complement the second campaign with additional material specifically written to address females who identify as trans.

That is an approach which does not exclude any women, regardless of how they identify.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Bobbie

It's not always possible to write: "women, trans men and non binary people with a uterus" every time you need to. Even Laurie Penny realises this. So when it needs to be shorter, what will they go for if we keep pushing this line that everyone has to be included in the description at all times?

[TyroSaysMeow]

"One in ten females of reproductive age" would have done the job nicely.

Except we gave an inch and they took a mile.

Male and female aren't optional categories; they're not identities; they're physiological, biological realities.

Female - one word, six letters, covers every single person at potential risk of the disease.

[KarenKarendson]

@BobbieDraper

I didn't say that did I. No doubt men get asked to use pronouns that are clearly inaccurate as well. It's only the meaning of woman that the woke idiots are trying to erase though. And I am not changing my language, nor will I be commanded to use language to please someone else. Not many people do pass, so if someone actually manages to get away with it, then whoopee doo for them, they can feel that little shiver of excitement that someone fell for it. Still can't change sex though, not possible I'm afraid. So in the unlikely event that someone manages to conceal the truth from a stranger, they can't hide from the truth themselves. Biology is such a bigot right 🤷

[JellySlice]

They dont want to be called women. Medical or otherwise.

Tough.

I don't want to be called obese, medically or otherwise. Being obese does not define me. When I look in the mirror I do not perceive myself as obese. I do not identify with obesity.

Tough. I am obese and where this fact is relevant I have to accept it. Including the use of the word 'obese'.

[KarenKarendson]

"Non binary" is a meaningless identity label that has no scientific legitimacy or relevance to medical issues. Like "Goth".

Yep

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

I don't want to be called obese, medically or otherwise. Being obese does not define me. When I look in the mirror I do not perceive myself as obese. I do not identify with obesity.

Tough. I am obese and where this fact is relevant I have to accept it. Including the use of the word 'obese'.

Yes, great analogy.

[BobbieDraper]

If Buck wants to consider himself a woman when it comes to medical campaigns then that it totally up to him. But you'll notice that he uses male pronouns. Most women on mumsnet would refuse and call him 'her' instead.

There are transmen who dont want to respond to the word women. Using both terms (women and transmen) for campaigns doesnt exclude anyone, and doesnt confused anyone if they dont know what a cervix is. You've said as much yourself, so I'm not sure why you're arguing.

[BobbieDraper]

@JellySlice

Obesity is something you chose. Whether you like it or not, you chose to overeat or not do enough exercise.

Transpeople did not choose the sex they were born. They did not choose to have gender dysphoria. They have taken the necessary steps so that when they look on the mirror, they see themselves presented in the gender they did choose.

If you dont want to see obesity when you look in the mirror, then lose weight. Dont expect people to call you thin if you dont try to change.

Most trans people take steps to change and fit the pronoun they prefer.

[KarenKarendson]

They did not choose to have gender dysphoria.

Not all transpeople have gender dysphoria.

[Floisme]

No I think there is disagreement on pronouns.
Pronouns are about preferred gender identity. This thread is about biological reality from which there is no opting out. They are two different things.

[DialSquare]

@KarenKarendson

They did not choose to have gender dysphoria.

Not all transpeople have gender dysphoria.

I was just about to say the same. We're being lectured by someone who doesn't seem to know about the Trans umbrella. Maybe Bobbie should educate themselves.

[KarenKarendson]

Maybe Bobbie should educate themselves.

Yep. Rather than seeking to educate women on something they clearly know little about. I think the majority of women on this board know what the score is now. Which is why we're saying no.

[CharlieParley]

@BobbieDraper

If Buck wants to consider himself a woman when it comes to medical campaigns then that it totally up to him. But you'll notice that he uses male pronouns. Most women on mumsnet would refuse and call him 'her' instead.

There are transmen who dont want to respond to the word women. Using both terms (women and transmen) for campaigns doesnt exclude anyone, and doesnt confused anyone if they dont know what a cervix is. You've said as much yourself, so I'm not sure why you're arguing.

Many women understand the term "transman" or "trans man" to refer to a person of the male sex. While that is correct for "trans man" (which nonetheless is used mainly incorrectly to refer to females who identify as trans), it obviously isn't correct for "transman".

Given this unclear terminology, its usage results in a health campaign addressing women and a group that may be understood to be men by a large number of women. This is not as effective as a campaign that addresses women only.

[gardenbird48]

@KarenKarendson

I think we will be helping these vulnerable girls more by pushing back and showing them that their bodies aren't wrong. They can be who they want without going down the gender ideology route. They need to see there is support for them to accept their bodies.

This. 💯

Absolutely - I think these vulnerable girls will need so much support and help - especially as they come to terms with the long term health implications of their ‘treatments’ but we have a duty to protect all our girls. We have a responsibility to push back on the concept of gender ideology before it damages any more bodies and minds. Our daughters need to be able to set their personal and sexual boundaries and need to be supported to be happy in their existing bodies, not sold an impossible illusion that ‘fixing’ their bodies will make them happy.

[CharlieParley]

[quote BobbieDraper]@JellySlice

Obesity is something you chose. Whether you like it or not, you chose to overeat or not do enough exercise.

Transpeople did not choose the sex they were born. They did not choose to have gender dysphoria. They have taken the necessary steps so that when they look on the mirror, they see themselves presented in the gender they did choose.

If you dont want to see obesity when you look in the mirror, then lose weight. Dont expect people to call you thin if you dont try to change.

Most trans people take steps to change and fit the pronoun they prefer.[/quote]
I fear you know as little about the mechanism underlying obesity as you do about people who identify as trans.

It is now considered exclusionary and transphobic to posit that people who identify as trans have gender dysphoria as a matter of fact. It is also considered exclusionary and transphobic to to assume that people who identify as trans transition in any way whatsoever, including pronouns or first names.

[CharlieParley]

Some of those who identify as trans do have gender dysphoria and some transition. Just as some people who are obese attained that state of being by "choosing" to overeat.

Many don't.

[ScrimpshawTheSecond]

I think a good analogy is whether non-Muslims are expected to use 'peace be upon him' after every utterance of 'Allah'.

[Falleninwiththewrongcrowd]

BobbieDraper

It's really pretty obvious in our society what living like a man or women is.

Not at all obvious to me, I'm afraid. Care to explain it to me?

[ListeningQuietly]

Men and other people with a prostate gland

Funny, that's not on the adverts

Men and other people with testicles

[BobbieDraper]

@Falleninwiththewrongcrowd

So you dont ever say him or her when you see someone for the first time? Because you cant possibly figure out if someone is a him or a her unless you see their genitals?
I wonder how you get through life never using a pronoun until yoice double checked what someone has in their pants.


Obesity. No one is born obese and then has to fight to get away from it. Also, once you lose weight, people dont continue to call you obese.

People are born now sex or the other (in most cases). Some are happy with this. Some are not. Those who are not, can transition and change their descriptors. But then they need to fight every time they come up against a mumsnet who refuses to say "her" if the person looks a bit masculine. Obese who lose weight dont need to do that, do they?

[KarenKarendson]

Because you cant possibly figure out if someone is a him or a her unless you see their genitals?

Lol. I don't need to see someone's genitals to know what biological sex they are. The majority of trans people do not pass.

[gardenbird48]

[quote BobbieDraper]@JellySlice

Obesity is something you chose. Whether you like it or not, you chose to overeat or not do enough exercise.

Transpeople did not choose the sex they were born. They did not choose to have gender dysphoria. They have taken the necessary steps so that when they look on the mirror, they see themselves presented in the gender they did choose.

If you dont want to see obesity when you look in the mirror, then lose weight. Dont expect people to call you thin if you dont try to change.

Most trans people take steps to change and fit the pronoun they prefer.[/quote]
Actually that is incorrect - the study of the microbiome is finding many situations where the population of gut bacteria plays a large part in causing obesity and they are making progress in treatments.
You clearly missed the memo from Stonewall re the trans umbrella and you have made rather a sweeping (and wrong) assumption about Mnetters not respecting Buck’s pronouns - courtesy has been extended on both sides.

[BobbieDraper]

@KarenKarendson

So the ones who manage to "trick" you, do you change what you call them when you find out?

We've got another mumsnetter above you saying that I'm wrong and mumsnetters do extend that courtesy to transpeople by calling them their preferred pronouns, despite the majority of posters on this, and other threads, saying they will not be told which pronoun to use. They'll use the one they want.

[DialSquare]

"But then they need to fight every time they come up against a mumsnet who refuses to say "her" if the person looks a bit masculine.*"
*
This is the total opposite of GC views. There are many gender non conforming women on here because we all think that Gender is a social construct. Its based on stereotypes and restrictive. Your quote above fits the Gender Ideology perspective not ours.