One in 10 women and other people with a uterus of reproductive age have the disease.

[ListeningQuietly]

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/aug/05/disgusting-study-rating-attractiveness-of-women-with-endometriosis-retracted-by-medical-journal

Should that sentence be in the article ?

[Falleninwiththewrongcrowd]

So you dont ever say him or her when you see someone for the first time? Because you cant possibly figure out if someone is a him or a her unless you see their genitals?
I wonder how you get through life never using a pronoun until yoice double checked what someone has in their pants.

The fact that you can often guess someone's sex from their appearance, voice, gait etc doesn't explain what it means to "live like a man or woman". Does it mean changing your appearance, voice, etc to the point where strangers will either be taken in and believe you are of the opposite sex, or more likely, realize that is your aim, and treat you as such out of courtesy?

[KarenKarendson]

We're not a hive mind @bobbiedrapper. Some people may extend the courtesy. I don't. But no, I won't be referring to biological men with female pronouns and vice versa. Why would I? It's not what they are. I would have done once out of kindness. But Ive had enough of the blatent disregard of women's rights and safety, the attempted erasure of words that describe women, and the deliberate attempts to throw child safeguarding out the window. It's over. I won't be giving an inch on any of this and I don't care if it brings out the hurty feelings.

[BobbieDraper]

@DialSquare

Just read this thread, ir a number of others on here, which show the hundreds of mumsnetter who will refuse to use the pronoun chosen by the person in question because they werent born that way.
If they pass as the gender the choose, the people on herr have called it "being tricked". If they dont pass, then they wont use the chosen pronoun. And that's gender ideology?

[TyroSaysMeow]

I've yet to come across a gender-critical mumsnetter who insists on male pronouns for women who look a bit masculine.

Male pronouns for people who are observably male, yes, plenty of us are down with that.

It's not actually mumsnetters who go around calling masculine women men; quite the opposite in fact. The idea that masculine women are actually men is sexist. As is the idea that feminine men are women.

But I suspect Bobbie is using Topsy Turvy World definitions.

[KarenKarendson]

And that's gender ideology

Suggest you read up a bit more about gender ideology and the harm it causes women and children. Because it seems to me you don't really have a clue on what it actually means.

[roarfeckingroarr]

While the non binary bollocks is ridiculous, especially as this is a medical issue affecting the female sex - and medicine doesn't care about your gender feelz - I can live with this.

[KarenKarendson]

But I suspect Bobbie is using Topsy Turvy World definitions.

Yes. I think you're certainly right there.

[PumbaasCucumbas]

Oh because mumsnetters and feminists are the big nasty bullies here, not that the vast vast majority of Homophobic, transphobic and misogynistic abuse and violence comes from men, who still get to waltz around the world calling themselves men, not being referred to in dehumanising language, saying twaw (except for relationship purposes) and presumably not hand wringing over pronouns.

This is the biggest unfairness of it all.

[ListeningQuietly]

I have a trans friend who I have only known as her and I would NEVER insult her by not using her legal name or the appropriate pronoun for her.
The fact that I know her original male name etc etc does not change who she is.

But she is not a woman because she is still at risk of prostate cancer not cervical cancer.
Which her lovely boyfriend well knows.

[JanMeyer]

A lot of people dont conform to gender stereotypes, but really we know which clothes are male and which clothes are female. We know which names are male and which are female.

So do you think wearing mens clothes is "living is a man" then? And how do we know which clothes are male? I mean i live in jeans and t-shirts with slogans/movie stuff on, most of those t-shirts are labelled as being for men, doesn't mean I'm "living as a man" though, does it? Or would you read them as being mens t-shirts just because they have stereotypical "boy stuff" on them?

[TyroSaysMeow]

If they pass as the gender sex they choose, that is tricking people.

And I say that as someone who used to pass as male routinely online.

[BobbieDraper]

@TyroSaysMeow

Where did I say that mumsnetter call masculine women "him"?

I'm talking about transwomen who dont pass as women. Everyone on here is saying they would not call that person "her".

[KarenKarendson]

Not just the nasty mumsnetters and the mean feminists anymore. The gender campaigners worst move was to pile on to key figures, like JKR, William Shatner, Rosie Duffield and even the archbishop of Canterbury, the more they shine a torch on the idiocy of their argument. The whole world can see it for what it is.

[Deliriumoftheendless]

Is it the majority? Is it hundreds?

MN insists posters use the pronoun the person being referred to wants (unless a convicted sex offender) so I don’t know how many people posting are doing that to prevent deletion and how many are doing it just because. I can see posters on here stating they would use the pronoun for the correct sex but I don’t read the wider site but I’d be surprised if across the whole board there are hundreds of women calling trans people by their sex (except when pointing out TMs have women’s biology etc which doesn’t necessarily mean that’s how someone would speak to someone’s face.

I suspect MN as a whole have a similar attitude as members of society in general- some will happily use the expected pronouns, some will refuse point blank and most will use them without actually deep down believing it.

[Deliriumoftheendless]

[quote BobbieDraper]@TyroSaysMeow

Where did I say that mumsnetter call masculine women "him"?

I'm talking about transwomen who dont pass as women. Everyone on here is saying they would not call that person "her".[/quote]
No, everyone is not saying that.

[KarenKarendson]

I'm talking about transwomen who dont pass as women. Everyone on here is saying they would not call that person "her"

Why would they? It's one thing to identify as something you're not. It's another thing altogether to insist that others call you by that thing that you're not. No-one has to buy into that if they don't want to. And why would they want to, when by doing so harms women?

[Delphinium20]

Using the term woman for all adult females IS inclusive. In fact, it is the MOST inclusive term because it includes any adult person born female regardless of how they express themselves to the world, what their body looks like, how they love, how/who/if they have sex, if they have children, how they parent...all those things. There is no word that is more inclusive.

[TyroSaysMeow]

We "refuse to say her if the person looks a bit masculine" was your complaint, Bobbie.

It's a falsehood. We're happy to use "her" of a female person who looks masculine; not happy to say "her" of a male person regardless of whether he looks feminine, masculine, or utterly androgynous. Because personal pronouns are markers of sex, not gender.

[Roswellconspiracy]

I am happy the word woman has still been used.

However I just cannot bring myself to be amongst those who are complicit in maintaining the false information regarding biological sex. I dont see how it helps anyone and I just can't do it.

Pronouns to me also make me hugely uncomfortable as I am.not a dishonest person.i find lying makes me feel absolutely awful and I would be so worried about messing up on top of feeling like shit for lying that I honestly don't know how anyone can say it doesn't hurt anyone or it doesn't affect me..
When you have to watch what you say akd not say whT you see thats incredibly difficult.

[ListeningQuietly]

The thread is about an article about an article about
endometriosis
If somebody would like to explain to me how a man can suffer from that disease I'd be fascinated.

WOMEN get endometriosis
MEN get prostate disease
WOMEN get cervical cancer
MEN get testicular cancer

and any article about health should be absolutely clear in its messaging
or it has failed by misleading

[DialSquare]

@TyroSaysMeow

We "refuse to say her if the person looks a bit masculine" was your complaint, Bobbie.

It's a falsehood. We're happy to use "her" of a female person who looks masculine; not happy to say "her" of a male person regardless of whether he looks feminine, masculine, or utterly androgynous. Because personal pronouns are markers of sex, not gender.

This. I was responding to what you typed.

[SophocIestheFox]

Ok, so let’s suppose for a moment that we do perform these linguistic contortions, and accommodate non binary and trans inclusive language when talking about endometriosis. Triggering avoided.

What happens to those non binary and trans identified females who actually do have endo? the specialists who treat endo are gynaes. Gynaes work on gynae wards (if surgery is required), which one would certainly hope are single sex. First line treatment is hormonal. You have to be able to discuss impact on your cycle, your sex life - when do you bleed? When does it hurt? What are your plans for family and how will your illness and treatment affect these?

If people can’t cope with words on a page or a screen, how on earth will they cope with any of this? I’m not saying this to be mean, I am saying this because I just dont think it helps. If you’ve got endo, you’re a woman. You are going to have to deal with that reality. If that’s distressing, then you need help with that distress. Turning the world inside out to accommodate your reality won’t help.

[BobbieDraper]

@DialSquare

And what I typed was a continuation of what I had been asking before of all the posters saying they wouldn't use preferred pronouns. If the trans person passed successfully as their chosen gender, then those posters would be "tricked" into using the false pronoun. But if that person, wanting to be called her, looked male then these posters would not call them her.

[KarenKarendson]

And what I typed was a continuation of what I had been asking before of all the posters saying they wouldn't use preferred pronouns. If the trans person passed successfully as their chosen gender, then those posters would be "tricked" into using the false pronoun. But if that person, wanting to be called her, looked male then these posters would not call them her.

So what's your point?

[Floisme]

Bobbie despite what you may have heard, not all FWR posters agree on everything. Pronouns are one such area of disagreement. Some posters will use them and some will not. But this thread isn't about pronouns so I'm not sure why you keep coming back to them.