For those who have kids at university - wokedom

[Teal99]

I have no kids, never went to uni - but where I work there are of young graduates who all seem to be totally on board with the trans woman is a woman concept, using pronouns and all manner of wokedom. They all seem like one group who all say the same things, think the same way....

Just for curiosity, if you have children at uni, or just graduated - are there people in this age group who think differently, even if they don't publicly express to their peers/friends that they don't agree with them? I think there must be some individual thought, which must be hard if they want to fit in/not be ostracised.

I think I just want a bit of hope that this period of madness will pass by and people will start to push back against a lot of wokedom. Or is the toothpaste too far out of the tube?

It's because they want to be adult human females, whatever the word is that means that.
Quite a few seem oddly partial to calling themselves 'girls' too.

Sorry if i am being thick but what does GC stand for in this context?

@RedtreesRedtrees

“The definition of a woman as an adult human female is never going to change. People may be forced to say it has, for fear of losing their job or being “cancelled”, but nothing material will ever change.”

I’m not so sure. Ultimately, there is nothing that anchors a descriptive term to a particular thing other than it’s use (and acceptance) by people to describe that thing. You need only observe the extent of public debate on this topic to see that many people are already using the term woman in a way that is different to the existing dictionary definition. Of course words can sustain different definitions in different contexts, something which is apparent even in a legal setting where the definition of something in one piece of legislation may differ to that in another. That I suspect is a pointer to where the future lies.

You can play around with what a 'descriptive' term to an object is - in this case woman. But you can't change what it means or what that object is. So, you/society can decide that a fork is now called a spidgle but it doesn't change what a fork actually is. What you are saying is really just word salad tbh. It is a huge red herring to suggest that many people use the word woman in a different way. 99.99% of people know what a woman is. Most men do when they want sex. Not to derail, my 21 year old was pretty woke. At a woke uni. Studying Philosophy. We had many many arguments. And I was called a bigot more times than I can count. Now, though in her final year, she is as GC as I am. She says that one, she doesn't really think that many of her peers think beyond the 'be kind' narrative and apply no reasoning to what they are saying and two, she is scared to voice her views as she is worried about the impact on her place at uni and any future job prospects. So it seems like you can only 'change' what words mean if you are a bully.

@Wavescrashingonthebeach

Sorry if i am being thick but what does GC stand for in this context?

Gender Critical.

Essentially, rejection of gender stereotypes, and therefore the notion of 'gender identity'. People have the sex they're born with, which can't be changed. Women have always been oppressed because of our sex, gender stereotypes enable this. So, instead it's wanting everyone to just be themselves without discrimination or being put into artificial boxes.

I'm 28 at university. I don't think trans women are women.

When the shit hits the fan after covid and unis are going broke and the students can't find jobs I think all the trans shit will die a death as other things become important. And the reasons for being 'kind' and favouring one group over the rest will fade.

I’d suggest it’s a very small proportion of an already minute demographic. I’m not sure how helpful it is to focus on ‘outliers’ because they will exist in any grouping and on any issue

Im fairly positive that people were saying this when the word ‘woman’ started being used

My DD is off to uni next month, I'm quite concerned now. She's going to study psychology so I'm not sure if this is one of the subjects that might have been influenced. When we went to view the unis, I had no idea about all what's been going. Her second choice Northampton, is a new build and has a third set of toilets (in the bit where we went to sign in at least) for gender neutral, I was impressed that they'd done this (still am) and I'm hoping this is a sign. Her first choice is Southampton. If anyone has any info on either, please would you message me. She is a bit woke but is very heavy on women's rights. I've asked her a few questions and she doesn't agree with transwomen, (especially sex offenders), in women's prisons, or in sport, or taking places set aside for women (especially if they've transitioned later in life and have therefore benefitted from male privilege). I also demonstrated with my different coloured pans by swapping the lids, how the pay gap and sex discrimination can be gotten around and she understood. I'm hoping that if she does go to a woke uni that she won't come under their spell but instead she can be part of a backlash (if that's the right word)

I'm torn, on one hand I am glad I just missed this on the other i would have loved to tear these sheep to shreds.

Ryan Long does great videos on wokeness if anyone wants a laugh.

This summer she has told me that as lesbians, it is now impossible to meet in public. They now organise privately. She doesn’t feel comfortable with this, but they do it anyway

Oh, that is so sad ...

@ErrolTheDragon

Many thanks for the detailed explanation that makes sense now.

My DD is at Uni, has Trans friends, uses their chosen pronouns and is kind and respectful.
And completely understands it is not possible to change sex. Gender, maybe, but not sex.

@apollo440 last time I commented against the accepted GC viewpoint I was amazed how many DMs I received from other Mumsnetters who also disagree with the GC perspective but are too fearful to post themselves. I guess it’s not just TRAs who are bullies

The big difference, Redtrees, is that Mumsnetters are not going to doxx you, get you fired from your job, try to end your academic career, report you to the police for your opinions, scream in your face as you try to enter a meeting, post rape threats and death threats, etc etc. All everyday behaviour by TRAs.

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

I’d suggest it’s a very small proportion of an already minute demographic. I’m not sure how helpful it is to focus on ‘outliers’ because they will exist in any grouping and on any issue

Im fairly positive that people were saying this when the word ‘woman’ started being used

Do you mean when TWAW started? As opposed to when homo sapiens first started talking and gave names to things that are the same so we could all understand what we were referring to?

@EyesOpening I'm not certain but I read something recently which gave me the impression Southampton was pretty woke, however, they have large science faculty so I would think that would balance things out

Do you mean when TWAW started? As opposed to when homo sapiens first started talking and gave names to things that are the same so we could all understand what we were referring to?

Absolutely!

[quote highame]@EyesOpening I'm not certain but I read something recently which gave me the impression Southampton was pretty woke, however, they have large science faculty so I would think that would balance things out[/quote]
Thank you, I'm not sure whether psychology is classed as science or a humanity as it seems to encompass both

Psychology is a science, or seen by some as a social science - Geography is similar.
I think it's fruitless to try and work out whether a large science faculty will reduce wokeness or particular subjects will be full of gender ideologues. There are physicists and biologists who think that putting a skirt on makes you female. There are sociologists who know that women are oppressed as a sex class. There are elderly professors who are bemused by the whole thing and those who think it can all be solved with a nice cup of tea. There are young trans students who know they haven't changed sex.

The painting of all people of a general socio-cultural persuasion are "robots" who can't think think for themselves and have no differentiation from each other, is just a lazy way people have of putting down those who disagree with them. The socially conservative right talk about "the political correctnes / identity politics brigade" while the liberal left talk about "the racist / nationalist / Brexit brigade", but they mean the same thing: People who agree with me are smart and independent and think about things, but people who disagree with me are all part of some unthinking "brigade" that they only follow because they're too stupid to know otherwise.

"Woke" 20-somethings are no different. Some of them are intelligent and critical, some less so. The fact of them being "woke" doesn't negate the existence of a huge range of different views about various subjects, or the ability to think differently and independently in examining those views. It just means they have a different starting point.

Yes, but that does not allow for the fact that many students feel unable to express their views, or feel the need to be careful what they say.

At DDs University expressing careful GC views along the lines of JKR would put you at risk of serious criticism, possibly bullying. Raquel Rosario Sánchez is one example of where a feminist views can be deemed unacceptable by peers.

Hence I assume OP being interested in what DC's views actually were. Do limits on freedom of expression by others cause those who disagree to change their thinking?

DD and I have not been able to talk about this since she was 16. She's now 20 and at Uni. She's sensible about most things though. I'm not sure that she's at the end where TWAW and anyone is a transphobe for saying anything, but she's definitely of the school who don't see any problem for women in it all.

I'm hoping that her closest friends at Uni are similar to her in this as they are in most things.

I have asked her about differences in thought, and free speech and she seems pretty much aligned with me in those areas. She also thinks the Uni is sensible about free speech (she's at a RG Uni); I don't think I've ever heard her mention "hate speech" or "hate crime" (though dh has - about disability though).

I think there is hope.

I graduated recently and while I am largely “woke” (socialist, feminist, anti-racist) I definitely believe in the importance of biological sex. I will respect a person’s identity and their pronouns, but I do not believe there is any value in trying to insist that twaw or tmam. I would much rather we put our effort into deconstructing the gender binary, and struggling against the different forms of oppression that women experience on the basis of their biological sex. In my opinion, that would be more useful - people wouldn’t then feel the need to identity out of their sex just because they feel like they don’t fit in a constructed gender norm.

DD and I have not been able to talk about this since she was 16. She's now 20 and at Uni. She's sensible about most things though. I'm not sure that she's at the end where TWAW and anyone is a transphobe for saying anything, but she's definitely of the school who don't see any problem for women in it all.

Given she's female, and has presumeably had to do things like use changing rooms and toilets in a variety of public settings, I'm interested in why she doesn't see a problem in it, whereas you (presumeably) do.

Do you think it's just that she's young and hasn't yet had the experiences that highlight the problems? Or something else?

"I think the age divide on the 'twaw' issue is partly to do with younger people being more likely to be internet-addicted and to have significant areas of their life conducted almost exclusively online"

I completely agree with this, this is a great point.

It ties into something else I have been thinking about a lot - about how we manage risk for our children, and as they grow and develop, move into training them to manage risk.

I think MC parents of those who are older teenagers now have (gross generalisation, I admit) taken a very caring, stringent line in limiting the physical risks to their children, relative to the parents in the 70s and 80s. I grew up in the 70s and 80s and my mother was unusual in the limits she placed on us, for our own safety. I always knew someone who had an arm or a leg in a cast, for instance, and kids went out for whole days and their mothers only vaguely knew where they were. (We temporarily lost a three year old once and I was racked with guilt! - But I was 7 or under and I hadn't understood that his mother thought we were "looking after" him. Seems bonkers now - and rightly so).

So, yes, there was a sort of societal backlash against all this in the form of bike helmets, supervised soft play centres instead of semi derelict building sites, and so on - but the problem with physically supervising all your children's physical play imo is twofold:

• how / when do they experience risk and autonomy? Is someone who has never fallen out of a tree while stealing apples someone who needs to thrill-seek, prove themselves as an autonomous individual who doesn't fear the Edge, in other ways?

• if their only outside experience is supervised or carefully permissioned, they will, just because of parents being people who simply have limited time and other things to do,, get a lot less of it - which means they will be online A Lot. this is their place, where they explore and have adventures. We, as people who do not have time to explore these unlimited realms, simply don't know all about everything they will encounter there.

I think parents of junior school kids now get that, or get that more. I think it's the late teens and 20 somethings now who were left to the Net as their wild west who basically grew up there, with weird effects

I think the bigger worry for me is not whether all young people have unquestioningly accepted the TWAW narrative. It's impossible to have 100% consensus in any kind of group, and from many of the stories here, clearly there are plenty of young people who are skeptical or who outright reject the hardcore beliefs of the gender identity faith.

The worry is that even if a substantial proportion or a huge majority of young people didn't believe in the concepts of gender identity, a very vocal and fanatical minority have managed to label all dissent and questioning as 'hatred'. People are unable or unwilling to speak up. Policies are being put in place at the behest of the fanatics and these types will also find their way into the future job market, ending up in science, economics, politics, healthcare, management and so on. They will bring this zealotry with them and as we are already seeing, the same stifling environment is growing in various companies and organisations. If it wasn't such a serious issue, it would be almost funny to see how extreme ideas from a minority are being pushed forcefully onto a majority and there doesn't seem to be an effective way to stop it. Usually you can always make your voice heard at the ballot box, but now even all the political parties seem to have swallowed up this extreme ideology or are being very wishy washy in their stance, so you end up being even further disenfranchised.