The cost

[Glinner]

Question for my gender-critical homies.

What was the closest friendship you lost because of your beliefs? Or not even the closest, just one that surprised you or knocked you back? We all know about losing livelihoods due to 'cancellation', but I want to show people the social cost of it.

@DancingLady Sorry that your mental health has suffered because of this. I think that is true for a lot of people. It's because it's all so bloody insane! It's like the earth Self-ID'ing as flat... and everyone saying the earth is flat because it says it is.

@PurpleCrowbarWhereIsLangCleg

Ah, that’s a shame. ☹️
I know quite a few goths. Always nice people. Unfortunately, being nice, pretty much all of them are full TWAW and one has gone a bit woke-bro. I suspect this is because they have the odd ‘lovely trans friend’, though one has recently gone through a rather dilettante trans journey that I’m convinced won’t last.

[quote Vermeil]@PurpleCrowbarWhereIsLangCleg

Ah, that’s a shame. ☹️
I know quite a few goths. Always nice people. Unfortunately, being nice, pretty much all of them are full TWAW and one has gone a bit woke-bro. I suspect this is because they have the odd ‘lovely trans friend’, though one has recently gone through a rather dilettante trans journey that I’m convinced won’t last.[/quote]
Yes, & of course most of the trans identifying people who go to goth events are thoroughly nice. I have, or had, several trans friends who are very likeable, genuine people, & found acceptance at gigs & festivals where they could just rock up wearing whatever the fuck they liked & be taken at face value, & in many cases have been doing so for years or decades.

There's a depressing new Puritanism which has crept in in the last decade, & heaven help you if you express the mildest of GC opinions. It's instantly interpreted as a vicious attack on someone's mate.

To be fair, goths will bicker about anything all day long. But there's a new vitriol in this particular debate.

[quote CatandtheFiddle]@Glinner, in addition to my post upthread admitting to cowardice over this, I may well be heading towards paying quite a substantial cost. I head up a "learned society" and we were discussing possible topics for our next conference. The issue of trans colleagues and debates over transgender came up. I had to speak quite directly about the fact that while we could run something to "support" trans colleagues, we couldn't have a debate, as I was not prepared for the doxxing, the death threats, the attempts to sac people like me ...

But I expect even an event that is about "support" will misquote the Equalities Act, and erase women. And I will have to say something. And that will lose me a lot of friends ...

I'm desperately trying to avoid this happening. I'm a coward.[/quote]
Oh my goodness - are you me? I also am about to head up a learned society - in a subject that has no obvious reason to be involved in trans issues - and this is an issue for me too. They are currently attempting to intervene as 'allies' and the office is staffed with young people who've drunk the koolaid and GI ideology has started to infiltrate the systems. Throughout academia, it is becoming more difficult to remain silent and it's an absolute nightmare because if you do speak up - you will certainly be condemned as bigotted and hateful. I don't know how I will navigate this. It's a real worry.

In life and friendships, though, things have been much simpler. All my family, all my true friends, my partner, my children (though they are young enough to still agree with their parents!), and several good colleague-friends - are all gender critical. It has been very bonding in fact. Some more distant colleagues are proving disappointing - but no one who was ever anything close to be a friend.

.. I'm a coward about this. I have a transwoman as a former colleague, and I'm still in casual contact with her. And I have a trans younger relative..

I'd be the same, you're not a coward cat, just a really difficult situation to navigate.

I don't have any trans people in my life so I'm really curious about something and hope you don't mind me asking:

Have the two people that you know managed to to have fulfilling relationships after transitioning? It is often said on here, for example, that men who insist that TWAW would not themselves date a TW. So is it working out for your ex colleague and your relative when it comes to finding a romantic partner?

He doesn't think he is denying biology, it's more that I don't understand how complicated biology is

This makes me think of that article, by a GC chap. He counters the argument about biology being complicated with a comment that they all seem to,know damn well what a woman is when they log off Twitter and go on to pornhub.

@PurpleCrowbarWhereIsLangCleg
I wonder if some of this hasn’t been caused by the constant insistence on ‘empathy’. It now seemingly impossible to be truly nice without endlessly being empathetic to every Tom, Dick or Harriet who’s feelings tick the right boxes. Trouble is, this empathy is not just performative, it is in reality very selectively applied and requires the empathiser to weigh up where the empathee sits on the Officially Approved Pyramid Of Intersectional Oppression (TM). Don’t score enough points? Then you’re persona non grata and anything you have to say that isn’t brimming with empathy for those who score higher than you is just hate, literal violence, and you totally deserve to be dogpiled. How else to explain why JKR has been made out to be worse than Satan himself (assuming Satan’s preferred pronouns there, I know) for openly mentioning her concerns about vulnerable woman and girls and her history as a victim of DV, whereas well off, privileged, middle class professional transwomen on the make such as Munroe Bergdorf get all the empathy and are never properly called out on what they say, even when it’s offensive bigoted bullshit, because being trans, and even better, being trans and not white, gets you all the points no matter what your actual background. The trans card trumps everything.
The end result is nice people feeling justified in being very nasty indeed.
Because you’re (not) worth it...

Yes @Vermeil I think that’s very much how it works.

And Munroe Bergdorf shows just how corrupt that hierarchy can be, when you review the things the MB has said about women (wasn’t there something about stinky vaginas? Or was that Paris Lees?)

I haven't lost any friends over my feminist GC position, probably because many of them are middle aged and tend to be no nonsense types. As for family, all but one are strongly in support of my views. My DSD is keeping her eyes open for any Stonewall/Mermaids propaganda in her DC's schools. Her DD is at a Catholic secondary school, which my DSD hopes will act as a protective factor. Her DS joins his sister next term.

My sons, who are in their twenties, tell me their friends not only don't believe in gender ideology, they simply can't take it seriously. They'll say "How dare you assume my gendah?" in tones of mock outrage and fall about laughing.

The only person in my extended family who supports gender ideology is one niece, privately educated and very sheltered, who is at an extremely woke university. She plays university rugby and other sports in which strength is key. Her dad is both baffled and appalled to find her so totally unrealistic about the dangers of playing against a mixed sex side. He was a serious athlete as a young man and, though one of the least political of men, is both knowledgeable and angry at the harm being done to women's sports by transactivism.

The main reaction I have encountered among friends and family is disbelief. Most people haven't the faintest idea what's going on or any of the arguments being put forward. Back in 2018 when I talked to all my friends on different occasions about the campaign for Self ID most of them were quite sure I must have got the wrong end of the stick. I had to show them evidence on my phone before they believed me.

Once I'd convinced them it was really happening they were horrified that something as momentous as Self ID was being considered without a widely publicised national debate. None were in favour of the idea.

My friends are far from unusual in their reaction to gender politics. When I leafleted with other women about the Self ID consultation over several weekends in autumn 2018 I only came across two out of dozens of people we spoke to who supported the idea. Interestingly, men cottoned on to the risk such a policy posed to women instantly. It took the women a few seconds longer.

Munroe Bergdorf shows just how corrupt that hierarchy can be, when you review the things the MB has said about women

OOps, I misparaphrased Munroe Bergdorf - their comment was about 'hairy lesbians' and 'barren wombs' - "your womb is broken you big hairy lesbian" and "barren hairy dyke"

Here's the proof:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/a3962371-What-does-cancel-culture-mean-to-you?msgid=98166061

Something like that - obviously a fear of female bodies ...

The problem I am facing is that people don’t believe what is happening because it all sounds so crazy. I almost feel like we need a leaflet that outlines all the issues coherently.

I lost a surprising amount of friends after they learned I voted Tory. I now don't talk about my political views around people I know

I know very few people who belief in gender ideology. I live in a very woke area and even my wokist friends and majority of work colleagues are doubtful but are under pressure at work not to question. The only people I know who seem to wholeheartedly believe gender ideology have little understanding of the issues women face.

This issue has been awful for my marriage, and we have a very strong one. It's made both of us view the other in a different light and like @TheGoogleMum we have an agreement not to talk about it. It feels like I'm having to hide a huge part of myself from him, whereas I've never needed to before.

@HermioneMakepeace

The problem I am facing is that people don’t believe what is happening because it all sounds so crazy. I almost feel like we need a leaflet that outlines all the issues coherently.

That's a bloody fantastic idea. I wonder if Stonewalls are actually daft enough to do that..

I'd be happy to hand them out.