The cost

[Glinner]

Question for my gender-critical homies.

What was the closest friendship you lost because of your beliefs? Or not even the closest, just one that surprised you or knocked you back? We all know about losing livelihoods due to 'cancellation', but I want to show people the social cost of it.

These stories are heart breaking.

I do have one observation, though. As a policy, I almost never discuss this on Facebook. There’s something about doing it online that seems to inflame the tension beyond breaking point to the extent that someone will absolutely see their arse over it. I am very, very bland about the subject online, and only ask open, neutral, entirely woman focused questions on the rare occasion I do discuss. When I do discuss it in person, it’s far, far easier to have a conversation with less conflict. Even when it starts, as one did, with a friend I only see a couple of times a year, launching in before I’d even got my coat off, “So I hear you hate trans people now, Sophocles”. And this from someone I’ve known thirty years, who knows without doubt that I’m no kind of bigot on any topic. Turned out he thought I’d been brainwashed by my much more openly GC husband. Sexist, much? Should I cut him off for being a chauvinist, if this is how we’re doing things?

It is quite, quite extraordinary that the level of tolerance is so low about being able to question any part of the doctrine, and the vitriol is like nothing I’ve seen on any other topic- not Indyref, not Brexit, not religion, not race, not abortion. Nothing comes close.

Hermione totally agree with your line 'I have lost respect amongst my peers.' I feel that too. And the knowledge that on almost EVERYTHING else - Brexit, BLM, gay rights, immigration, socialism - I agree with all these friends who've dropped me, is causing me a lot of cognitive dissonance. Can they REALLY think I'm a bigot? Don't they KNOW me at all? There was a great post on twitter, basically saying, what's more likely, that a load of left-leaning women have become bigots overnight, or that maybe there's some truth in what they're saying?

There was a great article on Quillette by Rob Henderson (why can't I find the original?!) on Luxury Beliefs - middle-class and upper-class people being woke - and how it costs them nothing and gives them status, but has real-life effects on those lower down on the socioeconomic scale. I'm thinking a lot about women who parrot TWAW and what they get out of it. Women who are not trans, often straight, don't know or work with trans people. What's in it for them to throw women and girls under the bus?

I am prepared, nay, happy to lose touch with people over this.

Why would I want to be friends with raging misogynists and homophobes?

Not happened yet. Up to now it's looking like I make good choices.

It really has the hallmarks of a kind of religious mania which has led to some sort of collective delusion.

Nicely put; it's the new religion.

Also said that women dying in menstrual huts in Nepal should be able to identify out of their oppression..

The person that uttered this is a disingenuous monster.

I haven't lost any friends at all. Every single time I have talked about this subject, they have been in agreement that this ideology is misogynistic at its very core and that men are using it to abuse women and children. A lot of the time as well they haven't been aware of the issues but once we talk it through they are firmly against it,

In reply to bubonicplague

Sorry, I will try again!!

In response to BluebonicPlague, I think the reasoning behind the toxic and aggressive nature of the debate is much more complex than the topic itself!

I think there are some very aggressive and combative people who just like to fight and argue. They latch onto any cause that gives them a legitimate outlet. They are shouting very loudly.

I think there are some very sinister individuals who want to break down the boundaries of women and girls, and children, for their own nefarious reasons and they are encouraging the first group of people.

I think there are some very ruthless people who stand to make a lot of money from a whole generation of young people on cross sex hormones for life and they are also encouraging the first group, and they have an awful lot of money and influence to do so.

I think a lot of this is taking place on social media where the manipulative tactics of these said individuals are only just being revealed and scrutinised.

I think a lot of public figures, politicians and activists, are giving the traffic and rhetoric on social media more credence than its worth - however, this does mean these attitudes and tactics are leaking into real life and the main stream political arena.

Your friends are becoming heavily influenced by these organisations, these activists, in turn these politicians and public figures, and are adopting the tactics and rhetoric of the first group of people thinking its a perfectly legitimate and reasonable line to take. I notice very much that there are no actual comprehensive arguments, rather scripted responses such as 'check your privilege, get educated, TWAW get over it' etc coming from the mouths of people who would never normally speak like this.

One or two people being publicly mobbed, doxxed, sacked, cancelled etc is enough to stop a lot of people from speaking out, so the counter arguments are suppressed.

Most people, I have discovered, don't really care. They won't seek out information or read blogs, articles, they are not on twitter, and quietly they will either just stick to their own opinion, which probably isn't even that important to them, or parrot what they hear around them. Therefore it's only the people who are really engaging who are being heard.

And who are they?

Well, see above.....

My teenage brother tried to ditch me over it. I GCd. my mother and took to loudly debating it whenever he was visible or could potentially hear.

He is very woker than thou, so I also explained that gender theory is simple sexism. Then called him a sexist rape apologist... (He was defending the NATWALT idea and saying women need to be accepting because TW are so vulnerable). He hasn't spoken to me about it again.

I have discussed GC views in a seminar setting (with a somewhat supportive lecturer). I give no fucks really now. I don't discuss it on social media though, in person only, so I can defend my view point at the time and prevent untruths being ascribed to me.

I can't talk to my husband about it at all - he thinks it's a complete non-issue. So I feel there's this massive thing (for me) that we can just never discuss, which feels quite lonely.

I worried what my friend who works in gender studies at a University thought about it. It came up in conversation one day and she thinks it is all utter bollocks but can't say anything for fear of losing her job. I feel sorry for her but so glad she hasn't drunk the kool aid. Somehow she quietly publishes stuff that is all about women. Hope she continues to get away with it.

OK, now I’m bloody furious! Mumsnet deleted my last post and now I am one strike away from a ban. This is not fair guys. I have no RL support, Mumsnet is my lifeline. I honestly don’t know what I would do without the support I get from here. I have re-read my post and honestly it’s not transphobic, it is just stating a fact. Why aren’t we allowed to discuss this issue? Why are we being silenced?

I've fallen out from quite a few people who don't see why I dislike being described as a "vagina fetishist". They are broadly the same people who, when my girlfriend and I first got together, were shocked that we did not identify with the entire "queer community". That I wanted to get on with my life without it being one long rainbow coloured glitter-fest.
I would call myself left wing. I support labour, I agreed with Corbyn over a lot of issues, I would generally describe myself as a very tolerant person. But now, I am somehow a right wing bigot, a transphobe, a homophobe and, by obvious extension, a racist.

You see, Glinner, we are even cancelled for answering your question and stating our own experiences, stating facts of our lives. (Sorry, HermioneMakepeace, read your post when it was there and have no clue why it was deleted).

The cost? What is the social cost of being unable to describe your own experiences? Not just to friends or family, but AT ALL.

And apparently gender critical women are hand in hand with and funded by ultra-conservative Christian groups in the USA. You know, the sort of groups that say women should dress modestly and obey their husbands, and can't have contraception or abortions, so obviously we'd all be in league with them.

I expect some of those ultra-Christians believe that the Earth goes round the Sun, so we'd have that in common too.

whoops, sorry, wrong thread.

Haven’t lost anyone, my best friends brother is gay, not transitioning
We have lots of chats about The transgender nonsense

My best friend and I had been discussing the aggressiveness of the TRAs and the unreasonable loss of women only spaces, sports, etc. for about a year or more and then friend's DD said "how does it hurt you, why can't you just be kind?" The mantra of the unthinking masses.

I did not fall for this clincher argument. My friend did, and we can no longer speak on these issues. I am right but alone and I can handle that, not sure how my friend will handle finding out she was wrong, and women's rights do matter.

I haven’t lost friends, thankfully.

Some - we agree to disagree. A good friend of 30 years, who’s gay, posted about TERFs, etc, but we had a very honest open discussion. Because of my daughter’s experiences I could give examples of safeguarding failures, etc.

The biggest cost to us has been from the mental health service. Because dd had suicide attempts after desisting after 4 years of identifying as male, the first conclusion jumped to is that she’s been converted by us and is in denial about not being transgender. It’s cost years of not being able to get an ASD assessment because they are not prepared to accept the black and white thinking which lead dd to think she was male, is anything to do with autism.

It’s cost dd years of her childhood.

Thank you for all these answers!

And thank you, Glinner, for your support for women! And for your fabulous sitcom writing, which has brought me and so many others much joy.

I haven't lost any friends through this - I guess to lose a woke friend, you have to have a woke friend to lose? I'm of an age where thankfully few of my friends are woke. They've had kids and are going through menopause and suffered the resultant impact on their career progression so know very well what a woman is, thank you.

Maybe the solution to avoid the distress is to make friends with more gender-critical feminists, who are more intelligent and better company. :)

In my group of closest friends, two are very vocal, would regard themselves feminists (slogans with hating the patriarchy etc)
Both have bitten with rabid relish into JK and Glinner on FB recently.
One posted about how cancel culture isn’t happening.
Both of them would cancel me in a heartbeat right now.

I was part of an online forum for years, so knew lots of people, both IRL and online. There were 2 people I used to meet up with a few times a year. I'd known them for nearly 15 years. As soon as I said I didn't think Transwomen were women they deleted me.

We're still part of the same forum but now I rarely post or reply because I feel they're all against me (I know it isn't true, I've spoken to a few others about it, but they won't air their views online.) I feel like I've lost my whole online support group really. And one of my sons keeps asking when he'll see my ex friends again.

@PenguindreamsofDraco, I was going to say the same thing. My DH refuses to discuss it at all, likes to give the impression that I have some mad bee in my bonnet. It is lonely and means that I have no RL person to discuss this with, especially my concerns relating to my teenage daughter and her trans school friends.

I haven’t lost anything thankfully. And that’s because everyone I know in real life thinks gender stuff is bollocks when I point it out to them, are gobsmacked when they are told there are people advocating for males to play contact sports against women, and are horrified when I point out to them that hormone treatment for children results in no sexual function, infertility and a host of other problems. I haven’t trawled my Facebook to see if anyone has removed me as a friend as a result, and if I did I wouldn’t care.

I know this is the antithesis of the thread but I think it’s important to recognise - and point out to those TRAs who monitor 👋- that the majority of people think the way we all do here, the house of cards is close to tumbling, and they can rage all they want, but their dangerous ideology won’t prevail.