The cost

[Glinner]

Question for my gender-critical homies.

What was the closest friendship you lost because of your beliefs? Or not even the closest, just one that surprised you or knocked you back? We all know about losing livelihoods due to 'cancellation', but I want to show people the social cost of it.

I was also quite active in fandom and fanfiction, though I haven't had much time since DS was born. I occasionally go on tumblr still and see friends I've had for years who preach tolerance and respect decrying the GC viewpoint as "hateful" and advocating for silencing and deploying violence towards GC women with seemingly no sense of irony. There's no attempt to see where GC women might be coming from and complete misrepresentation of GC views. They were the first people I ever felt brave enough to share my writing with, which was a huge step for me at the time. It seems a bit ridiculous, but that was my community for so long and it hurts so much to see how unwelcome I'd be (putting it mildly) if they knew how I truly felt. I don't want to let it to stop me from writing, but it's definitely lost its fun for me now.

Maybe we need a gender critical fanfic writers group!

Does anyone here remember VestalVirgin? She used to write gender critical fanfiction (largely satirical - she would take the loopier aspects of extreme genderist ideology, pop them into a fandom, play it with an absolutely straight bat, and watch the story unfold to its logical conclusion).

I lost my cousin over this. She was a good friend too. We were always close but became especially close after my Mum died because my Mum had been a second mother to my cousin. She understood my loss, and I understood hers. We talked for hours about politics, family, the state of the world... And then somehow the topic of transwomen in women's sports came up. She has a DGD in team sports but was entirely taken aback that I did not think it was fair for someone who had gone through male puberty to compete against girls and women. Apparently I was a bigot. She hung up (we were on skype) and I have not heard from her since.

This hurts because I did not rush to that decision even though it seems a no-brainer. I read up, and yes it is not right and not fair on women and girls. But I am the bigot apparently.

A friend from uni who has been a good friend for 25 years and one of DH’s best friends. No longer wants to speak to us. Blames me for ‘corrupting’ DH with my hideous GC feminism and DH (who is extremely independent-minded and at least as GC as me) for being brainwashed by me.

It's weird. It's even more divisive than Brexit. At least with Brexit there was a sense that the opposing sides understood each other, but once the wokeness has been partaken of, its adherents just stand there screaming "bigot" and losing pretty much all capacity for rational thought.

It really has the hallmarks of a kind of religious mania which has led to some sort of collective delusion.

A friend I'd known for 20 years. Not a close friend, but celebrated the birth of my daughter with me, knew my MH struggles and I knew hers, we saw each other a few times a year and mostly kept up on social media. A few mutual friends who I now realise are TWAW liberal feminists.

My niece, hopefully not forever. She's 18, super smart and super woke, but now thinks I'm a bigot.

A close friend who I haven't discussed this with but when I've said things on group chats she's made clear she agrees with TWAW. We've seen each other a lot over the past few months (socially distancing... our DDs are best friends) and it's been stilted and a bit awkward.

My younger sister, the most lefty socialist communist Corbynite you've ever met. I asked her if Jessica Yaniv was justified in suing beauty salons in Canada for refusing to wax his nuts and she said yes. Also said that women dying in menstrual huts in Nepal should be able to identify out of their oppression... She's very smart and brilliant and compassionate in so many ways, but we're polarised on this.

Last few months have felt very sad and lonely, only on MN, Twitter and a handful of irl friends seem to agree with me that women are women and TW are TW.

TyroSaysMeow that sounds devastating. I was part of a group of women, mostly lesbians, who worked on an arts project a couple of decades (!) ago. We kept in touch over the years and now they all think I'm bigoted.

My husband agrees with me on some issues (e.g., transitioning kids, TW in women's sport) but works in a female-heavy media industry where pretty much all his colleagues have pronouns in their bios (rolling my eyes so hard). So he's nervous of being seen as a bigot, I guess.

Thanks Glinner for starting this thread. It has made me so sad to fall out with good friends and family members over this one issue. And that they now see me as possibly hateful and bigoted. I use my real name on Twitter and keep my tweets part work related/part GC. Being doxxed is a worry. I'm a lifelong Labour voter but feel (cliched but true) politically homeless over thing. Greens might be my best bet.

I was in a fandom/fan fiction scene that was based on tumblr which is why I’m very aware of how bloody dangerous it is. There are a huge number of young teens on there who are clearly struggling with life & feel very isolated posting absolute shite as fact - history is constantly trans washed, 14 year old girls insisting they’re aeromantic queer NB, that trans women are absolutely identical in every way to women “say it louder for the people at the back” and screaming TERF at anyone who even vaguely suggests that’s not the case

If I said what I do and don’t believe? My sister, my best friend at work, and one of my university friends all have ‘trans’ daughters or stepdaughters (presenting male, I mean). Sister actively campaigns for trans women to be in women’s prisons.

I stay off the whole subject and meet up less often because of it.

Kit19 one family member is very into that scene. 18 years old and now nonbinary, wears binders etc... I love her very much but I don't want to preach to her.

I only became GC a few months ago. It's been a real eye-opener.

I asked her if Jessica Yaniv was justified in suing beauty salons in Canada for refusing to wax his nuts and she said yes. Also said that women dying in menstrual huts in Nepal should be able to identify out of their oppression...

Sister actively campaigns for trans women to be in women’s prisons.

I read comments like this and I just despair. The world has gone collectively insane. How any woman can look at Yaniv and see anything other than a vile sexual predator, or know about the likes of Karen White and think putting TW in women's prisons is a good thing, or look at the suffering imposed on women in menstrual huts and victim blame by saying "why didn't they identify out of it?" I just don't understand it.

How can women do this to other women?

It’s hard Dancing - tumblr will reinforce all her feelings and more, at least half the people I knew were struggling with anxiety, feelings of disconnection with society, an inability to form real life relationships & feelings of hopelessness. On line life feels so safe in comparison

I'm not bothered about friendships, but this topic is an open wound between me and two of my kids. I actively self censor around them to avoid losing them. It's sad, embarassing, and makes me feel that I failed as their mother.

Contentious I feel for you. My eldest just turned 10 and we've talked about JKR etc a bit but I'm not about to lay it all on her at this age. We've talked about how boys and girls can like anything, wear anything, play with any toys, read any books, be attracted to boys or girls. I got a few copies of My Body Is Me by Rachel Rooney and Jessica Ahlberg (sp?) via Transgender Trend and that's great for my 4yo. Got copies for friends too. Great message: your body is perfect just the way it is.

Oh hell. The topic is way more toxic than Brexit.

I am a coward speaking about it IRL because my son is a committed TRA, politically active. He's always been a feminist and I was pround of that, but TWAW blindsided me. We had a row about this ages ago, when he threatened never to speak to me again and slammed the phone down. He's never done that before. I didn't know whether to believe him - we'd been so close - but he did speak to me again. We have just never again spoken about this, and I don't speak about it anywhere that he can see or hear me.

I have various other people in my life where I actively avoid the subject. I wouldn't broach it with anyone unless I had an inkling they could be likeminded. And very few friends with whom I can speak openly. DH is onside but thinks the whole thing is so barmy there's nothing left to discuss.

DancingLady

Mine are grown up. Upbringing matters but dominant culture is strong.

What I don't understand - but I have witnessed and seen myself - is why people ARE falling out about this. Who has this much skin in the game?

Be honest. We all know people who have maybe racist opinions, or homophobic opinions. Maybe they would not be openly bigoted, but the odd comment here, a snide remark there - and how many of us roll our eyes and tut but largely just ignore it?

Why has this become such a battle ground? Why do you get such abuse, such vitriol, for not believing TWAW - especially, as was in my case, from people who are neither trans or know any trans? Just like I am a Christian, but respect the rights of someone to be atheist, I eat meat but respect a vegetarian viewpoint, why are we unable to let someone else's view on this subject lie between friends?

I know the answer really, by the way....

@rabbitwoman

What I don't understand - but I have witnessed and seen myself - is why people ARE falling out about this. Who has this much skin in the game?

Be honest. We all know people who have maybe racist opinions, or homophobic opinions. Maybe they would not be openly bigoted, but the odd comment here, a snide remark there - and how many of us roll our eyes and tut but largely just ignore it?

Why has this become such a battle ground? Why do you get such abuse, such vitriol, for not believing TWAW - especially, as was in my case, from people who are neither trans or know any trans? Just like I am a Christian, but respect the rights of someone to be atheist, I eat meat but respect a vegetarian viewpoint, why are we unable to let someone else's view on this subject lie between friends?

I know the answer really, by the way....

What is really the answer, do you think?

I don't think it's as simple as misogyny, though that accounts for a lot of it. Something else is going on - a need to be seen as a good, enlightened, progressive person? The sort of person who wouldn't entertain a discussion about whether women should vote, or black people be enslaved, or Jewish people be sent to gas chambers. That might sound a bit Godwin's Law, but I've heard the arguments cast in those terms.

Then there's the emotional commitment to a moral stance...

Would be grateful for any insight into the psychology here.

Bluebonic I suspect it's about what people like to believe about the sort of world we live in as well as about the sort of people they themselves are.

A lot of people are very wedded to the idea that the world used to be a terrible place where terrible things happened, but we're enlightened and past all that now. Yet slavery still happens, genocide still happens, the denial of full citizenship and personhood rights still happens. Most people want to turn a blind eye so they can still sleep at night.

It's a psychological defence mechanism. Pretend none of that could happen here and you think you're safe. The twaw mantra is part of the 'we're enlightened and so I am safe' lie, I think.

Plus most people are really shit at critical thinking and basically believe what they're told they're supposed to.

I haven't lost any friends over it, but mostly because I socialise with a very small groups of people, and they largely agree with me on the subject. I am VERY circumspect about what I say at work. I've raised the flag a few times but no-one bites. One of the guys there is very woke but quite reasonable (I'm religious he's atheist) and I pointed out to him the logical problems with trans identity theory as well as the problems for women and his response was "it's a bit harsh of you to use science to show me I'm wrong" 😂

I lost the only friend I have in my adopted country. She posted something like “Fuck TRFs” about JKR. I asked her what she thought was so wrong with what JKR said. Cue massive argument. I took pains to make it clear that while I am broadly supportive of trans people, I don’t agree with everything that is being done in their name, and that I don’t think people should be harassed, threatened, cancelled, doxxed or fired just for asking questions or raising concerns about certain aspects of the ideology. I naively thought I could get her to see sense by very calmly and rationally and politely explaining my reasoning, which is based in part on my experiences as a secondary school teacher. Well... she didn’t address a single point I made, just spouted slogans like transwomen are women, trans rights are women’s rights, trans people are the most oppressed group ever. She also asked if I’d ever actually met a trans person and condescendingly suggested I needed to educate myself because it was “really sad” that I felt my womanhood was “threatened” by theirs. You know, the usual shit. (It really as if they’re all reading from the same script!) In the end we agreed to disagree in order to save our friendship but weeks later, we still have not spoken. At this point I realize I cannot in good conscience remain friends with someone who actually says things like “a trans woman’s right to feel safe and comfortable is more important than a woman’s because they are more vulnerable”. I mean, seriously, WTF?! She is now posting memes with pictures of guns and slogans like “Arm Transwomen” and “Kill TRFs” (though she claims to be a liberal, tolerant, non-violent, anti-gun person) so I feel I have made the right decision in removing her from my life.

However I do worry about what she might tell our mutual acquaintances about me, and how that could affect my prospects here. I think my husband would definitely get fired from his job if his company knew what our views were, even though we are in no way hateful or bigoted.

Oh btw this same friend is very much into BLM but she regularly tolerates racist remarks from her friends and relatives yet she will not accept even a hint of so-called “transphobia” from me, her closest friend! I have no idea why she thinks this issue - which does not affect her personally in any way - is more important than any other and is worth falling out with me about.