The cost

[Glinner]

Question for my gender-critical homies.

What was the closest friendship you lost because of your beliefs? Or not even the closest, just one that surprised you or knocked you back? We all know about losing livelihoods due to 'cancellation', but I want to show people the social cost of it.

I haven’t lost any friends because thankfully everyone I know thinks gender identity politics is complete bollocks.

I’ve not lost friends because of my GC beliefs. My friends and I agree to disagree. Always like a lively debate together and they are great people who I respect. We don’t have to agree about general politics or gender politics or parenting.

My friends are thankfully all sane. Some of them are still on the "#bekind" wavelength, but even they can see the issues of self id etc.

The only person I (nearly) lost was my 20 yr old DD. She is 2nd yr at Uni, entrenched in wokeness, has trans friends and simply couldn't comprehend when I told her I not only didn't hate JKR but actively agreed with her.
We have always discussed and debated any subject and she's usually excellent at critical thinking (Wants to be a Barrister - much better at arguing and way smarter than me) but this is one subject she just won't discuss with me.

It's honestly as if I've said I support Hitler or something.

Good grief - why has Son's post gone? It was very funny - the idea of an au pair who was a philosophy undergraduate being subjected to the Socratic method by Son (gently ask questions until the logical incoherence of their position becomes inescapable, then patiently explain all the logical fallacies they've committed) was hilarious.

I missed the deleted post by son and I'd really like to read it.

If anyone copied it (I do that all the time with great posts) could you please send it to me in a private message?

Thank you. xx

@HermioneMakepeace

OK, now I’m bloody furious! Mumsnet deleted my last post and now I am one strike away from a ban. This is not fair guys. I have no RL support, Mumsnet is my lifeline. I honestly don’t know what I would do without the support I get from here. I have re-read my post and honestly it’s not transphobic, it is just stating a fact. Why aren’t we allowed to discuss this issue? Why are we being silenced?

I'm furious too.

I'd like to read your post and if you don't mind the faf could you copy and paste if you still have it (or anyone else?) and send it to me privately. It's pathetic that we have to do that on our board that we love but we will prevail I'm sure. xx

@BaronEssoStation PM on its way...

Thank you hermoine - I've just seen it and you made a very good point that needed making in just two short lines.

xx

I suspect this thread is getting extra special scrutiny because it was started by Glinner.

Yes it is... be extra careful with any personal info.

I'm late to this thread, but I remember vestalvirgin. I didn't know she wrote gender critical fan fiction, I'd love to see it.

On the topic of online cultishness, I'm not immersed in fandom at all. I never post on Reddit, I don't have a Twitter or Tumblr account, but I have written a fan fic while in lockdown. It was bizarre because I went on Reddit around the time JKR posted terf wars, and members of that fandom were saying how much they loved my writing and the feminist streak that runs through it. (Stealth boast...) And then in another bit, they were all abusing JKR horrifically, with lots of Karen-ing! It was a surreal and horrible experience. And it was more surreal because while I don't try and preach gender critical, my feminism is very obviously sex-based and yet they were all over that. It was so odd.

@TheGoogleMum I’m in the same boat as you. Thankfully my mum, sisters, sister in law are with me on this. I’ve never told my other half this though. Like you, we don’t talk about it any more.

It's helping kill my marriage. He's very much 'no debate' and thinks I'm on the wrong side of history. I can't forgive him for not taking on board my views or even accepting that I, as an older woman, might have a perspective worth listening to. He has advised me to educate myself by reading up on the right kind of feminism, the younger women he follows on Twitter. He really is a complete twat on the subject and I feel utterly betrayed. We have agreed to avoid the subject. Yeah he's got a beard.

I'm a coward about this. I have a transwoman as a former colleague, and I'm still in casual contact with her. And I have a trans younger relative - I'm not particularly close to them, but I am with my sibling - or rather, I don't want a breach between me and my sibling.

It's tricky, isn't it? I'm a full-on radical feminist, and the mantra "transwomen are women" makes angry. But that's about the extremist ideology. But on a person to person basis, I really don't want to upset people I know. I use preferred pronouns, names etc.

It's hard to find a way of expressing one's views in a way that is logical and clear, and talking about sex classes/categories, not individuals.

My way around this is to focus on women & girls, and their rights. I'm actually not that interested in transwomen. With their socialised & conditioned sense of masculine privilege (ie the gender role of masculinity, which is, as we know, a cultural construction) they are perfectly able to advocate for themselves.

Our friends are mostly separate & it hasn't come up with joint friends. He doesn't think he is denying biology, it's more that I don't understand how complicated biology is. It's exhausting just thinking about it.

I'm a goth, & of course that scene has always been hugely welcoming of cross dressers (although the boundaries are blurred anyway because lots of the gorgeous goth men of my 80s youth were resplendent in eyeliner, frilly shirts & jewellery, & lots of girls had a very androgynous look in DMs, skinny black jeans & baggy band T-shirts - & anything went in terms of hair!).

Plus lots of awkward geeky types, people with autism, gamers etc drifted towards alternative culture over the years.

These days I'm very out of step because the Kool Aid of TWAW! has been mainlined, especially amongst the younger crowd, & frankly some of the older men just love doing the Wokey Cokey & telling women off.

I've lost a few mates & had to agree to disagree with others.

It's sad. ☹️ 🦇.

He has advised me to educate myself by reading up on the right kind of feminism

Any man who tells a woman that she's wrong about feminism is an utter arse. Sorry - I know he's your DH, but really?

Can you just use that annoying phrase "Check your privilege?"

@Glinner, in addition to my post upthread admitting to cowardice over this, I may well be heading towards paying quite a substantial cost. I head up a "learned society" and we were discussing possible topics for our next conference. The issue of trans colleagues and debates over transgender came up. I had to speak quite directly about the fact that while we could run something to "support" trans colleagues, we couldn't have a debate, as I was not prepared for the doxxing, the death threats, the attempts to sac people like me ...

But I expect even an event that is about "support" will misquote the Equalities Act, and erase women. And I will have to say something. And that will lose me a lot of friends ...

I'm desperately trying to avoid this happening. I'm a coward.

Cat you're not a coward. It's horrible knowing you can't speak your mind because of the hate you'll get for it. I'm finding it exhausting and have today deactivated my Twitter account. I was reading a lot and learning a lot but it was no good for my mental health to feel so furious all the time. That may be cowardly, but I needed to take a step back. A male friend (the DH of one of my oldest friends) sent me a long message saying he was so disappointed to see such hate and GC stuff in my timeline... basically telling me TWAW and that my feminism was wrong. He's a nice guy irl, and he wasn't trying to patronise me, but he did say my misgendering someone was hateful... I give up, for a bit. Will carry on reading MN, talking to friends irl who won't call me a terf, and discussing feminism with my kids as much as I can without being a weirdo about it.

Dancing lady. What a cheek that man has telling you wha5 to say and think and you are hateful. Jeez these men

In answer to glinner nope never lost a friend but then we are just ordinary people. Not one believes TWAW. not 1