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I have been recorded by my local police force as 'hateful'
187

Spero · 31/07/2020 09:15

Dear All

I am posting here in case I 'disappear' from Twitter. I set out the background here if you want to read more.
twitter.com/SVPhillimore/status/1289109245280100353?s=20

In a nutshell I made a Subject Access Request of Wiltshire police after a Twitter account boasted I now had a 'record for life' of my 'hate'. The police disclosed to me 12 pages of screenshots that were not hateful in the least; they were mainly discussions about the GC debate that have been confirmed as protected political speech.

I have requested this is deleted; the Information Management Team at Wiltshire have declined so I will go through their appeal process, eventually to the PCC and then judicial review.

I am writing to urge ANYONE who publishes on line about gender ID etc in their own name or is otherwise readily identifiable, to make a SAR of you own force to see what is recorded against you; you will not be told.

If there are others in the same position as me it might be sensible to consider joining forces in some kind of class action.

hopefully I will know by the autumn if I am going for JR.

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Spero · 31/07/2020 11:44

@Pobblebonk

Have you tried pointing out to them that, since they accept this is false, the issue of malice is irrelevant on the basis of their own wording of the relevant rules?

Yes I will be submitting a very full response which I will publish online. I am doing this as publicly as I can. People need to wake up to this.
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JackiesArmy · 31/07/2020 11:44

The problem is with the definition of a "hate incident". Unless the current definition is changed, absolutely anything can be a hate incident and has to be recorded (according to the police).

So if I post on twitter, or even say, that I don't like someone, a person overhearing it can decide to be offended and report me. Because they perceive it to be hateful it is, no proof necessary.

The guidelines need to be changed.

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ArriettyJones · 31/07/2020 11:45

Arrietty - its the same core group of people who have now joined forces with various TRAs - and I am sad to say, some self identifying feminists.

That’s quite revealing about everyone involved, then. I’m genuinely shocked by that.

Good luck with it. Wine

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Mummyoflittledragon · 31/07/2020 11:45

@NotBadConsidering

Shocking. Truly shocking. Not to mention racist. They’ve taken something that was set up with the good intentions of giving black people the opportunity to have the racism towards them recorded after the murder of Stephen Lawrence and disregarded the importance of that, instead using this process to vexatiously complain about women talking about women’s rights.

Maybe it’s worth asking Baroness Lawrence if she’s aware of what this process is being misused for.

Gosh, yes. Baroness Nicholson would also be interested, I think, as she is taking up the feminist cause.
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suggestionsplease1 · 31/07/2020 11:45

What did you post OP? It's hard to comment on police actions without knowing the content. Was any of the material directed at a personal level against someone?

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NekoShiro · 31/07/2020 11:47

Well tbh I wouldn't be having this issue as I know not to use my real name on anything online, so I'm perfectly happy for police to screenshot my posts under an alias that I use on only this website and will abandon after a couple of years.

It's naive not to use an alias, I grew up with adults telling me to be careful about what identifying things I post online and it's a lil strange to me that people now happily post everything linked to their names, faces, place of work etc beyond what would go onto a cv as malicious things like police reports, stalking and swatting are so frequent now.

And I'm not saying I don't support you, do whatever you need to do, I'm just here on a public forum trying to expand my mind through talking to women who are more experienced in life and I want to keep growing and being questioned and told I'm wrong so that I can learn things I wouldn't learn otherwise.

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ArriettyJones · 31/07/2020 11:50

And I'm not saying I don't support you, do whatever you need to do, I'm just here on a public forum trying to expand my mind through talking to women who are more experienced in life and I want to keep growing and being questioned and told I'm wrong so that I can learn things I wouldn't learn otherwise.

To understand why it’s so shocking, I think you need to forget the internet aspect temporarily, and think about what the role and function of the police is, how police forces have been politically misused under various jurisdictions and what the relationship between police and state should be.

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NotBadConsidering · 31/07/2020 11:51

@NekoShiro

Well tbh I wouldn't be having this issue as I know not to use my real name on anything online, so I'm perfectly happy for police to screenshot my posts under an alias that I use on only this website and will abandon after a couple of years.

It's naive not to use an alias, I grew up with adults telling me to be careful about what identifying things I post online and it's a lil strange to me that people now happily post everything linked to their names, faces, place of work etc beyond what would go onto a cv as malicious things like police reports, stalking and swatting are so frequent now.

And I'm not saying I don't support you, do whatever you need to do, I'm just here on a public forum trying to expand my mind through talking to women who are more experienced in life and I want to keep growing and being questioned and told I'm wrong so that I can learn things I wouldn't learn otherwise.

Are you missing the point on purpose?

Anyone could have hate incidents recorded against them, anonymous or not, and they wouldn’t know it. That an anonymous person wouldn’t be affected but a named person would is immaterial.

JK Rowling could have hate incidents recorded against her and would have no idea.
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suggestionsplease1 · 31/07/2020 11:52

Out of interest why does it matter if the reporting is maliciously motivated or not?

A person could be maliciously motivated to report their neighbour's theft of a 3rd party's car because of a prior dispute between the two. It doesn't matter at all, surely? The only relevance is whether or not the theft occurred, as far as the police are concerned.

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Spero · 31/07/2020 11:53

Malice is important here because it shows bad faith of reporter. Problem is that 'hate' is subjective and left to alleged victim to define.

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cdtaylornats · 31/07/2020 11:54

If Sturgeon gets her Hate bill through in Scotland you could get 7 years for that.

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sleepyhead · 31/07/2020 11:55

Exactly. My understanding is that it's the perception of the viewer that makes it hateful - of course that makes it completely open to abuse because it's basically saying that if I think you're hateful (or even if I want other people to think you're hateful for my own ends, because who is to judge what is a truly held perception or not), anything you say can be perceived at hateful by me.

If I perceive NekoShiro as hateful, then anything she says, no matter how innocuous to another observer may be hateful. If I perceive her post above as a dog whistle then it's a dog whistle and hateful. And I can report her as such to my local plod.

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Spero · 31/07/2020 11:55

@NekoShiro

Well tbh I wouldn't be having this issue as I know not to use my real name on anything online, so I'm perfectly happy for police to screenshot my posts under an alias that I use on only this website and will abandon after a couple of years.

It's naive not to use an alias, I grew up with adults telling me to be careful about what identifying things I post online and it's a lil strange to me that people now happily post everything linked to their names, faces, place of work etc beyond what would go onto a cv as malicious things like police reports, stalking and swatting are so frequent now.

And I'm not saying I don't support you, do whatever you need to do, I'm just here on a public forum trying to expand my mind through talking to women who are more experienced in life and I want to keep growing and being questioned and told I'm wrong so that I can learn things I wouldn't learn otherwise.

I will never not use my name. I have said and done nothing of which I am ashamed nor should attract police attention.

My name is Sarah Phillimore and everything I say is done in my name.

That is rather the point of freedom of speech.
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Lifeisabeach09 · 31/07/2020 11:55

Well tbh I wouldn't be having this issue as I know not to use my real name on anything online, so I'm perfectly happy for police to screenshot my posts under an alias that I use on only this website and will abandon after a couple of year.

Good for you. But, in a free country, people shouldn't have to use an alias or hide their identity when discussing a subject, controversial or not.

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suggestionsplease1 · 31/07/2020 11:57

Surely there must be some common sense, 'if the average person' would also construe the matter as hateful, over and above just personal perception?

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sleepyhead · 31/07/2020 11:58

How can you be sure NekoShiro? How can you be sure that you won't get on the wrong side of someone in your personal or professional life and be reported for a hate incident?

It's not just online reporting - it's anything you say or do, or someone perceives you to have said or done.

You might be feeling on the right side of history today and completely clean in thought and deed, but what about tomorrow if the goal posts shift?

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Spero · 31/07/2020 11:59

@suggestionsplease1

What did you post OP? It's hard to comment on police actions without knowing the content. Was any of the material directed at a personal level against someone?

No abuse
No targeting
No names.


If you want to see them, look on my timeline - they are all there. Or email me at [email protected] and I will send you police PDF
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ArriettyJones · 31/07/2020 12:00

Exactly. My understanding is that it's the perception of the viewer that makes it hateful - of course that makes it completely open to abuse because it's basically saying that if I think you're hatefu

Which was always the problem with the McPherson definition. I’m surprised it’s taken this long for the troublemakers to figure it out.

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Dances · 31/07/2020 12:03

As I understand it, the police simply record the complaint as given, and it is recorded as a 'hate incident'. No challenging, no investigation, no questioning to see if the complainant has a grudge or other malevolent reason to make the report. Simply recorded.

And as I said, Scottish Trans Alliance senior members are advising people who come to their Government funded conferences to make such reports when women put stickers up saying women are adult human females. God knows what is advised on all those 'Helplines'

The Stasi did stuff like this. Are we one day going to be allowed to access the files on ourselves after the trans ideology comes tumbling down like the Wall?

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ThePurported · 31/07/2020 12:06

I will pledge to your legal fund, Sarah. I'm glad you started a new thread about this.
Please everyone read Sarah's blog post
www.faircop.org.uk/fruit-of-the-poison-tree/

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suggestionsplease1 · 31/07/2020 12:07

"The police and the CPS have agreed the following definition for identifying and flagging hate crimes:"

"Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice, based on a person's disability or perceived disability; race or perceived race; or religion or perceived religion; or sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation or transgender identity or perceived transgender identity."

"There is no legal definition of hostility so we use the everyday understanding of the word which includes ill-will, spite, contempt, prejudice, unfriendliness, antagonism, resentment and dislike."

Just looked this up and wow, if they're working to that the bar seems incredibly low to determine a hate crime!

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StandUpStraight · 31/07/2020 12:08

Nothing constructive to add, spero, other than to say I read your Fair Cop piece, was utterly appalled, and will dig when the time comes.

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Floisme · 31/07/2020 12:09

Slight derail but I remember watching the Stephen Lawrence documentary and thinking that Clive Driscoll - the old school cop who put the evidence together that nailed the killers - probably wouldn't get into the police now.

Thank you Spero for what you do and good luck. Thanks

Also seeing you out there, using your own name, is inspiring and humbling.

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Staffy1 · 31/07/2020 12:09

You would expect this kind of thing in Russia or China. What has happened to this country?

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NekoShiro · 31/07/2020 12:10

Exactly like I said before, the police need better guidelines written for what is deemed hateful, but there's always the issues of things becoming too specific and people falling through the cracks, like I said before I'm not purposely trying to upset any of you, I'm genuinely uneducated on the issues you're discussing and I'm trying to develop a better understanding.

Someone said to think about what would happen off of the Internet, but if this happened in 'real life' within a spoken conversation it would then be a he said she said type of situation where the police would have nothing to report as its just feelings, we are also socially conditioned that it isn't polite to talk about things like politics, money and sex within public places so these types on conversations are more likely to happen through friend groups where friendships would be broken when differing opinions on issues such as these, not have police reports filed, whereas online it's easy to get worked up over things as people don't feel real, which is why I believe an alias to be best when discussing certain topics to avoid incidents like this happening, people lives are being ruined because of tweets and Facebook posts, and it's not going to get better anytime soon.

I've had a lil browse through your twitter and it looks like more of a personal account than a professional one so why do you need to have your real name attached to it, they wouldn't of been able to report you to the police if they didn't know your name, obviously you can do whatever you want to do and yet again I'm not trying to say what your doing is bad but I hope some people will see this and untangle their personal and professional online lives to avoid such issues in the future.

I can only see this as a lesson on not allowing strangers to know who you are online so they can harass you.

I genuinely hope you get this police report removed, it's unnecessary and has wasted a lot of police time.

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