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I have been recorded by my local police force as 'hateful'
187

Spero · 31/07/2020 09:15

Dear All

I am posting here in case I 'disappear' from Twitter. I set out the background here if you want to read more.
twitter.com/SVPhillimore/status/1289109245280100353?s=20

In a nutshell I made a Subject Access Request of Wiltshire police after a Twitter account boasted I now had a 'record for life' of my 'hate'. The police disclosed to me 12 pages of screenshots that were not hateful in the least; they were mainly discussions about the GC debate that have been confirmed as protected political speech.

I have requested this is deleted; the Information Management Team at Wiltshire have declined so I will go through their appeal process, eventually to the PCC and then judicial review.

I am writing to urge ANYONE who publishes on line about gender ID etc in their own name or is otherwise readily identifiable, to make a SAR of you own force to see what is recorded against you; you will not be told.

If there are others in the same position as me it might be sensible to consider joining forces in some kind of class action.

hopefully I will know by the autumn if I am going for JR.

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Spero · 31/07/2020 13:07

@ThePurported

My favourite 'hate tweet' was - my dog will call me a Nazi for cheese.
With a picture of my dog looking sad.

It's difficult to imagine who was the victim in this particular non-crime hate incident. Does the police record say which group you were supposed to have targeted here?

I was supposed to have published hate against Jewish AND transgender people so I assume any reference to 'Nazi' was treated as anti Semitic.
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happydappy2 · 31/07/2020 13:11

This is surely a massive waste of police time-when we have an out of control problem with knife crime & domestic abuse...They need to get their priorities straight

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OvaHere · 31/07/2020 13:12

It's outrageous that our police are colluding with the reporting of thoughtcrime. I wish you the best of support in this @Spero

In a twisted way it's a sort of evil genius by these lobbying orgs who have been able to weaponise the language of women fighting to uphold our rights and present it to the public in the form of 'hate incident' statistics.

There's plenty of evidence of organisations and individuals encouraging the reporting of every tiny thing that could be perceived as an infraction or a slight.

So the public really needs to understand that when we are presented with the rhetoric that LGBT 'hate crime' has increased by X percent, a huge proportion of that will be things such as a woman on the internet somewhere saying that menstruation is a female issue or that women don't have penises.

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Pikachubaby · 31/07/2020 13:15

Good luck Spero!!!

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wellbehavedwomen · 31/07/2020 13:16

@NekoShiro there is a difference, yes, but an incident (which is completely subjective) can go on your file, to be disclosed if you seek an enhanced DBS.

That has a direct impact on your life, potentially. And therefore there is a chilling effect - people afraid to say what they really believe, even on their own private social media. Which is a problem, given this is a contentious subject, and women's rights are directly affected - you'd need to be stupid or a liar not to see that having spaces where women communally undress affects women, if a man can come out as trans and immediately demand access. Bluntly, there is a claim that a male has a right to expose his penis around naked women, if that male says it's her penis. That affects us. It just does. We have a right to a view on it. Same with sport, and rape counselling, and who is female when we want a smear or a mammogram, and, and, and. We absolutely have the right to express our views, and campaign for the law to uphold our rights to single sex provision. There is nothing hateful about that.

I also note that the hatefully misogynistic things thrown at women with our views are not covered. They are hateful, and clearly founded on hatred of women, but we aren't covered under hate incidents, nor crimes. Hatred of women isn't specifically banned, or monitored. TRAs can say whatever they want to us on our sex, but any response along similar lines relating to gender identity would go on your file as a hate incident. While I would regard anything as hateful as their words to us as hateful, yes, so that would actually seem reasonable, what isn't is the asymmetry.

If the test is completely subjective and there is no right of reply at all, then you could have something against your own file right now and have no idea, and it come up if eg you apply to volunteer for the Girl Guides. It doesn't matter how unfair or unjustified that might be. Trans people have found their efforts to support women's rights, and to recognise the conflict, have meant they've been reported, too.

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BovaryX · 31/07/2020 13:29

The basis of this was that certain behaviours that can often lead to violence are not always threatening or abusive and therefore the offence should apply where it is ‘insulting’ as well as ‘threatening’ and ‘abusive’

terry

That is very interesting. It's the Orwellian redefinition of words. So any discourse that isn't entirely supportive can be deemed 'insulting.' The truly shocking thing is that this onslaught against freedom of speech is being conducted without any media spotlight. Or public debate. It is being implemented sub rosa. How many people are aware that there is a non crime crime category in operation? While multiple police forces deign to investigate burglaries?

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fatblackcatspaw · 31/07/2020 13:29

is a Subject Access Request the same you would do for Police Scotland?

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SisterCellophane · 31/07/2020 13:34

I had no idea that a.) police reports that were NFAd were kept on file and would show up on DBS, I thought you'd need to be convicted of something or at the very least charged in order for this to be kept on record?? or b.)police reports can be made and data held on you without you being informed. Is this specific to "hate incidents"? Are "hate incidents" any reports of potential hate crimes, or can anything be reported as such?

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BovaryX · 31/07/2020 13:37

@happydappy2

This is surely a massive waste of police time-when we have an out of control problem with knife crime & domestic abuse...They need to get their priorities straight

Quite. Where is the outrage from the media? Because this absurd situation is beyond parody. This is another failure of the fourth estate. Why are there not forensic exposes of the myriad problems inherent with this paradigm? There was coverage during Harry Miller's case, but then silence. I seriously doubt most people are even aware of the Orwellian crime non crime category.
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Joisanofthedales · 31/07/2020 13:38

Spero I am so sorry this is happening but totally in awe at your courage and tenacity. When digging is required I will be there with my shovel.
Stay strong and know you are supported here by all thinking natal women.
FlowersFlowers

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Spero · 31/07/2020 13:47

@SisterCellophane

I had no idea that a.) police reports that were NFAd were kept on file and would show up on DBS, I thought you'd need to be convicted of something or at the very least charged in order for this to be kept on record?? or b.)police reports can be made and data held on you without you being informed. Is this specific to "hate incidents"? Are "hate incidents" any reports of potential hate crimes, or can anything be reported as such?

It's part of the Hate Crimes Operational Guidance - High Court upheld as lawful in Fair Cop JR, Harry is appealing.
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sleepyhead · 31/07/2020 13:49

SisterCellophane - yes, any contact you have with the police is kept on file and could be included in an enhanced check for employment/volunteering purposes.

This should be done on a case-by-case / need to know basis so non-convictions won't automatically turn up, but it would be good to know whether 'hate incidents' would be included in roles where the individual might come in contact with people with the protected characteristic - e.g. would Spero's "incidents" be disclosed if she was applying for a job with children & young people?

If I recall correctly, it came into law due to Ian Huntley's run-ins with the law, which were not convictions, but which painted a picture of someone who you might not want working with children.

It's all meant to be very nuanced, but who knows?

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ScrimpshawTheSecond · 31/07/2020 14:09

Where is the media outrage about this?

If you say something is 'hate' or 'bigoted' or even 'problematic' then it's cancelled, very effective thought-stopping terms. Journalists don't seem to investigate further, they've bought into it, too, shockingly for those whose livelihood depends on freedom of speech.

Oh, 'freedom of speech' is a right-wing dog whistle, too, don't you know?

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BovaryX · 31/07/2020 14:25

@ScrimpshawTheSecond

Where is the media outrage about this?

If you say something is 'hate' or 'bigoted' or even 'problematic' then it's cancelled, very effective thought-stopping terms. Journalists don't seem to investigate further, they've bought into it, too, shockingly for those whose livelihood depends on freedom of speech.

Oh, 'freedom of speech' is a right-wing dog whistle, too, don't you know?

The manipulation of language is at the core of this. Because this is Newspeakdictionaryterritory.
'Bigot' is deployed to shut down dissent. It is used to silence inconvenient questions. Words are redefined in a way that strips them of their meaning and they are reformulated in service of the new orthodoxy. This is an attack on the foundational principles of the Enlightenment; freedom of speech, debate, diversity of opinion. Unfortunately, the fourth estate's epic failure to interrogate any of this authoritarian agenda is because they are in thrall to much of it. I increasingly have very little respect for those who use 'right wing' as an insult against people prepared to defend Enlightenment values. Maybe those who use it should ask why the left wing has capitulated to such totalitarian impulses?
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NameXForThis · 31/07/2020 14:35

I wonder what the Baroness would find if she checked her “file”....

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herecomesthsun · 31/07/2020 14:57

What about the people suggesting sexual assaults against someone like JK Rowling? Is that okay by the police? Should we be reporting that as a hate crime then?

I have written a couple of very mild things on Twitter saying I support JKR as a fellow feminist and I quietly wished her a Happy Birthday today. My children love her books, and so do I, and she has done some great things in philanthropy etc. So should I be worried (also have my real name on Twitter)

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Spero · 31/07/2020 15:15

@herecomesthsun

What about the people suggesting sexual assaults against someone like JK Rowling? Is that okay by the police? Should we be reporting that as a hate crime then?

I have written a couple of very mild things on Twitter saying I support JKR as a fellow feminist and I quietly wished her a Happy Birthday today. My children love her books, and so do I, and she has done some great things in philanthropy etc. So should I be worried (also have my real name on Twitter)

Misogyny was deliberately excluded from the. 'Protected strands' for hate crime, as police candidly admitted they would have been overwhelmed.

I think what is protected is sexual orientation, transgender identity, race and disability - also religion? Not sure.

And of course 'gender identity is NOT a protected characteristic under the Equality Act: that is 'gender reassignment'
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Jux · 31/07/2020 15:37

They've reported for hate against them (unsubstantiated), and I was thinking that you could report them for hate against you - substantiated by your own posts which are anodyne and do not demonstrate hate at all, merely a different pov. Their reporting of you does demonstrate malice and bad faith.

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Spero · 31/07/2020 15:51

@Jux

They've reported for hate against them (unsubstantiated), and I was thinking that you could report them for hate against you - substantiated by your own posts which are anodyne and do not demonstrate hate at all, merely a different pov. Their reporting of you does demonstrate malice and bad faith.

They will not have reported me in their own names. I understand reporting can be done anonymously through the True Vision app. I think what they have done is encouraged another person to make the complaint. It was clearly planned and discussed otherwise why else boast about it on Twitter?
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Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/07/2020 16:21

What do you mean monitor, you mean like screenshotting and reporting transphobic things?

It's all down to perception, that, isn't it? If talking about women's sex based rights is transphobic, then we have a problem. Which is the issue here.

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Jux · 31/07/2020 16:25

Then it's clearly 'malice aforethought' (sorry,, it's about the only bit of legalese I know Wink).

Oh, and ''heretofor'; I'll get my coat

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ThePurported · 31/07/2020 16:55

They've reported for hate against them (unsubstantiated), and I was thinking that you could report them for hate against you - substantiated by your own posts which are anodyne and do not demonstrate hate at all, merely a different pov. Their reporting of you does demonstrate malice and bad faith.

But you can't report 'hate' unless you link it to one of the protected strands - not exactly difficult if the mere mention of the word Nazi gets you a six-year record, just in case (of what??), but it doesn't solve the problem.
And you can't report someone just because they took advantage of the vagueness of the definition 'non-crime ... perceived by any person'.

The police and the CPS have created this problem, and they refuse to acknowledge the misuse of hate-incident reporting even when they are given concrete examples.
It's very worrying.

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BentBastard · 31/07/2020 18:06

As an aside, Haven't read whole thread but wanted to let you know, was surprised I hadn't seen this on Twitter and checked and I have been unfollowed from you (I did not unfollow you) so if you have lost some followers, this may be a reason!

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BentBastard · 31/07/2020 18:16

Read thread now. Spero, just want to say sorry this is happening to you, it's appalling. I'm most grateful to you and others that speak out in your own names. I can't post on my own on public social media (on any topic) per my terms and conditions of my employment, which is for good reason, so I am grateful to those that do.

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Kantastic · 31/07/2020 18:30

Spero, this is completely outrageous and I'm so sorry this has happened to you, what a fucking Kafkaesque nightmare we're heading into as a country.

You mentioned that the same tweets appeared over and over again in the report and I am trying to understand this, the implications are staggering.

-Is each Tweet that is reported a Hate Incident?
-If the same Tweet is reported 1000 times is that 1000 Hate Incidents?
-If the reporting is anonymous could the same person report the same Tweet 1000 times to create 1000 Hate Incidents?

  • Assuming I have a Protected Characteristic and coding skills, could I write a bot that randomly reports Tweets as Hate against me personally and become, single-handedly, the most oppressed group in the entire country?
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