‘Our Baby: A Modern Miracle’ C4 10pm tonight

[Haveastock]

The story of Jake Graf and Hannah Winterbourne’s surrogacy journey. They’re the photogenic transgender power couple who are patrons of Mermaid.

Their surrogate was an Irish woman and I followed Jake on Instagram during the whole drama of the birth happening amidst a pandemic. I actually shed a tear when I saw a photo of the baby in their arms and thought about a nameless woman in the background having to deal with the post-birth pain and bleeding without a baby to hold.

I’ve just watched a trailer where Jake said they were hoping for a boy first (they used their own eggs and donor sperm) as they knew how to handle boys - throw them around, be boisterous etc. and werevmore familiar with that then girls who, as far as they were concerned mainly played with glitter and dolls!!! Yes, they laughingly admitted they’re were as prone to gender stereotypes as the next man, woman etc.! How we laughed!?

I’m sure it will be an interesting programme and the baby is so gorgeous. As I’ve said before, I wish them all well. The baby won’t be short on love. But by championing Mermaids and their push for the affirmation model, no matter how young, Jake is indirectly encouraging a generation of young kids to start on a treatment pathway that will end up in depriving them of any chance of a biological child of their own. I find that absolutely tragic.

(Am sure they’re a bit frustrated that their programme is airing during the 48 hour Twitter blackout)

Hope no one minds me posting about it on this board. Am sure there will be a thread in Telly Addicts too. I imagine they’ll get a lot of positive feedback.

Personally I think you must not be 100% ok to go through that for 15k.

I often think this more about altruistic surrogates. Especially when it's for strangers. What happened to you that you feel you need to help/please other people that much that you'll put your own health on the line. Even a straightforward pregnancy is not without its sacrifices.

There's a good doc on YouTube that focuses on paid surrogates in the USA. The woman on the whole seen young, nieve and to have been brain washed by the "just carrying it" "I'm not the mum caz it's not my egg" narrative. But on the whole, they just need the money. 20k is alot of money to a young mum working two minimum wage jobs and in debt.

It also annyos me that no one speaks about the additional risks associated with carrying a pregnancy from a foreign egg. Or the risk of donating eggs.
Especially when most of the time that is done purely so the surrogate feels disconnect to the baby inside her.

Alabamawhirly1

The account given here gives a thoughtful explanation as to why a woman might choose surrogacy (apart from the money).

nordicmodelnow.org/2020/01/29/i-was-an-altruistic-surrogate-and-am-now-against-all-surrogacy/

I find it weird and guilt trippy when photos of babies are posted next to the pride flag etc (or any endorsement of LGBT/surrogacy like this).

It is a way of shutting down conversation by saying, 'Look at this cute baby who wouldn't exist if it were for your bigoted views'.

I have just received this treatment on another thread where I started I am against donor/surrogacy. A poster was telling me about her donor conceived child who 'I want to wish out of existance' or some such nonsense.

Babies should not endorse anything political because they cannot consent to it. We have no idea what the baby's views will be when they're older

It's not much different to puppy farms who use carefully curated social media to promote themselves. Everyone is a sucker for cute babies whether they be human or animal. It doesn't change the unethical exploitation behind the pictures.

Saw this yesterday, relates to Ukraine so will also post elsewhere. The reason why I post it here is there is a surrogate mother who says it is 'addictive', she compares it to a casino.

www.rferl.org/a/nobody-s-child-inside-ukraine-s-controversial-surrogate-adoption-industry/30755463.html

I suspect that those who do it for altruistic reasons, or those who think they do, also enjoy the glory (if that's the right word), the constant comments of how amazing it is, what a generous and kind woman she must be. This message is what we here from same-sex parents on instagram, in the women's magazines, on Lorraine and in most TV coverage.

The 'serial' surrogate mothers keep doing it despite risks to their health. There's the money sure, but there is more to it than that. It's a void to be filled.

Well I hope all four parents will be very happy with the lovely child.

The conversation in the car about "the mother is sitting next to me" really shows up the unpleasant bludgeoning of people to change normal everyday language to fit this alternative reality. Jake phones midwives in a maternity ward about a mother who has just given birth and angrily corrects them for saying mother.

Give it a rest, you have just both spent half a programme talking about Hannah choosing not to save sperm and how you have donor fertilised your eggs for implantation. You are literally selling this information to the public over and over for years and yet you can't even let a maternity ward midwife refer to the surrogate mother as the mother in a phone call clarifying who you are there to see without getting nasty. It's this disrespectful mendacity that's so upsetting. Leave the bloody language alone and get over yourself.

I did get the feeling that the hospital were wise to Jake and Hannah and were trying to ensure that Laura came first.

I got that too king even though it was strict lockdown, birthing partners were allowed at the wishes of the mother, during active labour. I do think it depends on the hospital but had Laura wanted Hannah or Jake there (only one) the midwives would have done their best in sure to accommodate them.

Maybe it's different in Ireland but other babies, surrogate or otherwise, were born during Covid and birthing partners have and are permitted to be there.

As Laura had them there for the implantation part it made me wonder.

I don't understand why some women want a whole raft of people at their birth (not a criticism) I had DH but I actually just needed to focus on the job in hand. Didn't want or need lots of people there purely to "watch" Maybe Laura is like that, she'd already given birth twice so knows what her preferences are, and maybe by that point she had realised that it would never be about support for her but just about spectating and telling her what to do.

When I was in for my 3rd the MW's joked about the "troublesome thirds" * and how often that delivery ends up very different to 1&2. I know that is just their opinion, but I guess also their experience shows maybe some truth. So I wonder how Laura is, even if her children were straightforward there is no saying this one was.

• She really was troublesome. A definite force to be reckoned with.

Maybe Laura is like that, she'd already given birth twice so knows what her preferences are, and maybe by that point she had realised that it would never be about support for her but just about spectating and telling her what to do.

Good point, can you imagine having Jake present while you are trying to give birth?!!!

I just think it's telling that she phoned them once she'd given birth. Normally they'd at least know when she started being in labour. Don't know what was going on behind the scenes but it was interesting...

From the ITV website:

Hannah said, "The main thing our documentary will hopefully do is show that surrogacy isn't this seedy, underground thing, and actually it's a really lovely thing that benefits both parties."

The couple chose their surrogate Laura after several months of failing to 'click' with anyone
---

It definitely didn't show me that both parties benefitted. I thought it was a pretty poor documentary, very low on facts and very much focused on feelings - those of the transgender couple rather than Laura's, obviously. Which sums up trans rights activism nicely, I think.

The desperation to mould this transaction into a normal pregnancy experience was obvious throughout, and the histrionics whenever reality broke through - not being there for the birth for example, and the possibility that the baby might want to breastfeed . The insistence that Hannah - who had no biological connection - was the mother, and Laura, who had actually used her body to turn an embryo into a baby with lungs, eyes, a heart, kidneys, etc., wasn't.
Jake also using the term "cooking" to describe what the surrogate does to the baby. It's so disingenuous. That baby was literally built from Laura's body, and Jake describes it as that just being the "cooking" process, as though to downplay her absolutely huge part in it.

Also Jake's comment that "as a man" it was unpleasant to go through the medical process of removing his eggs. As though for a woman, that kind of intrusive process is all fun and games, and just what women should expect.

I actually did feel sorry for both Hannah and Jake. They both seem to have struggled a lot. I just don't think the turmoil of gender identity issues justifies the use of a woman in that way, and I found them self-absorbed and desperate to distort the reality of what was happening into something that they found more palatable.

nordicmodelnow.org/2020/01/29/i-was-an-altruistic-surrogate-and-am-now-against-all-surrogacy/

Really good insight to an altruistic surrogate.

I think when intented parents want to be at the birth - they seem to forget that giving birth is a very private and intimate thing. I don't want anyone other than my dh or possibly my mum seeing me in my most vulnerable state. I would feel extremely uncomfortable giving birth in nothing more than a nighty hitched up to my waist with even my closest friends present.

But then intended parents don't seem to care about what's best for the mother - they wouldnt ask her to surrogate in the 1st place if they did.

@TheGreatWave

You've scared the shit out of me. What's this about troublesome thrids. I'm pregnant with no 3 and have been expecting this one to just pop out.

A friend wanted her husband with her during Covid and wasn’t allowed at that point (In England). It has varied over the weeks.
Friend described this as “giving birth alone”.

Sorry Alabama actual delivery was fine, if anything she was the easiest. I was just in slow labour for 30 hours, before my waters broke. The first two were 12hrs from waters breaking to delivery. Oh and she was term unlike #2.

@Alabamawhirly1 You've scared the shit out of me. What's this about troublesome thrids. I'm pregnant with no 3 and have been expecting this one to just pop out.
If it helps, my no 3 did just pop out - about 90mins in total - we only just made it to the hospital - probably should have had her at home. I didn’t know there was a thing about no 3’s.

@KingFredsTache

And I think that Hannah comparing herself to an infertile woman is a manipulative false equivalence, but we have seen it many times before.

Definitely. It feels as though Hannah is trying to gain some sympathy by appropriating infertility, in particular female infertility.

OK feel a bit better now. I had a rough #1 and an OK #2 so I was expecting #3 to be a walk in the park.

@Collidascope

From the ITV website:

Hannah said, "The main thing our documentary will hopefully do is show that surrogacy isn't this seedy, underground thing, and actually it's a really lovely thing that benefits both parties."

The couple chose their surrogate Laura after several months of failing to 'click' with anyone
---

It definitely didn't show me that both parties benefitted. I thought it was a pretty poor documentary, very low on facts and very much focused on feelings - those of the transgender couple rather than Laura's, obviously. Which sums up trans rights activism nicely, I think.

The desperation to mould this transaction into a normal pregnancy experience was obvious throughout, and the histrionics whenever reality broke through - not being there for the birth for example, and the possibility that the baby might want to breastfeed . The insistence that Hannah - who had no biological connection - was the mother, and Laura, who had actually used her body to turn an embryo into a baby with lungs, eyes, a heart, kidneys, etc., wasn't.
Jake also using the term "cooking" to describe what the surrogate does to the baby. It's so disingenuous. That baby was literally built from Laura's body, and Jake describes it as that just being the "cooking" process, as though to downplay her absolutely huge part in it.

Also Jake's comment that "as a man" it was unpleasant to go through the medical process of removing his eggs. As though for a woman, that kind of intrusive process is all fun and games, and just what women should expect.

I actually did feel sorry for both Hannah and Jake. They both seem to have struggled a lot. I just don't think the turmoil of gender identity issues justifies the use of a woman in that way, and I found them self-absorbed and desperate to distort the reality of what was happening into something that they found more palatable.

Great post, especially the bit about the histrionics whenever reality breaks through and about Jake talking about how awful an experience egg harvesting was 'as a man'

Also, your post made me wonder something about surrogacy... Obviously it works perfectly fine with an egg that has a totally genetic makeup to that of the woman gestating pregnancy, as we have seen, but how does that work?

The woman who is actually pregnant, its her blood and tissue that is used to feed the baby and help it actually grow? She obviously doesn't pass on any genes but part of her is going into the foetus for 9 whole months?

Do donor egg surrogacies often result in miscarriage or do they have a similar rate as any other IVF?

I don't know, it's just something I have never thought of before about surrogacy, or indeed about pregnancy in general?!

@OhHolyJesus

How is this all recorded on the baby's birth certificate?

Good question, the sperm donor will need to be named as the father I think as all children conceived via donors are meant to be able to find their biological parents...and Laura as the mother until this is change via a parental order where Laura relinquishes parental responsibility.

This could be complex though as Hannah will want to be named as the mother and Jake the father in the parental order but this hasn't happened in U.K. law before and you can only have a parental order if one parent is biologically related, so that would be Jake as it was Jake's eggs and so that would make Jake the biological mother.

This will be a Freddie McConnelly type case. I do believe Andrew Spearman, Freddie's lawyer will be busy!

Parental orders haven't been challenged in this way before...

My understanding is that the biological mother is the woman who gave birth to the baby. Effectively I guess Jake is an egg donor. But that is in E&W, not sure about NI. Hannah will not be the mother - Hannah did not give birth. I would assume that there will need to be an adoption. Very interesting case from that perspective. Although at this point I would imagine the birth has been registered and if Hannah had been named as the mother and Jake as the father we would all know about it wouldn't we? Because it would be seen as a victory (pyrhic)

For the BC the father will be blank (as it was a sleek donor) and Laura will be the mother yes, it's the parental order that will be the challenge as I don't know whether, even with GRCs, the judge will approve them being recorded on the PO as the parental roles they chose.

She obviously doesn't pass on any genes but part of her is going into the foetus for 9 whole months?

Mitochondrial DNA can be present up to 10 years after birth.

Do donor egg surrogacies often result in miscarriage or do they have a similar rate as any other IVF?

Lupron /anti rejection drugs are given to the surrogate mother to prevent miscarriage but it doesn't always work.

Eggs from someone else will be seen as a foreign body to your own body, so similar-ish to how anti rejection drugs are used in organ transplants, it's a similar premise with donor eggs.

Jake is effectively the egg donor and will not be on the birth certificate and my understanding is, wouldn't be able to register the birth of Millie as he has no documentation to show he is the spouse of the mother. Someone is going to have to register the birth, even with the understandable delays around covid.

*Lupron /anti rejection drugs are given to the surrogate mother to prevent miscarriage but it doesn't always work.

Eggs from someone else will be seen as a foreign body to your own body, so similar-ish to how anti rejection drugs are used in organ transplants, it's a similar premise with donor eggs.*

I fully appreciate the sentiment but need to clear up a few things. The process of receiving donor eggs is not very different to a frozen embryo transfer. I’m not making a judgement on whether donor conception is ethically right or not.

Lupron is not an anti rejection drug, it’s used to treat prostrate cancer and to turn off ovarian function in women for a discrete time period for medical and sometimes fertility reasons most often in those those suffering endometriosis or adenomyosis. In the UK, you might be given birth control pills to sync cycles where the donor eggs are “fresh” but it wouldn’t be necessary where the eggs were frozen.

There is pretty limited evidence to support the concept that donor eggs are less acceptable than your on eggs. It’s not remotely comparable to an organ transplant. In IVF, women are prescribed immune suppressants (steroids, intralipids) for their own eggs where they’ve had recurrent miscarriages or bloodwork suggesting an overactive immune system.

Donor eggs are an independent risk factor and women who act as surrogates, having previously has problem free pregnancies frequently run into difficulties with their surrogate pregnancies. This applies to women using donor eggs for ivf as well as surrogate mothers.

This major study concluded

"Donor oocyte pregnancy acts as an independent risk factor for pregnancy complications, including hypertensive disorders, small for gestational age, and preterm delivery. Women should be counselled carefully before undergoing DO ‐assisted conception."

obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1471-0528.13910

There is also the matter of the risks and harms of obtaining the eggs, which I hesitate to refer to as egg donors. True, in the UK payment is capped at £750 which in no way would tempt me to go through the process.
In the USA college students are targeted as good genetic material, clever, sporty etc and payment may be as much as $10,000 so obviously a significant temptation to help pay college fees this way.