Gay/trans false equivalence

[Toblerone345]

Not really sure how to word this but hoping someone slightly more eloquent than me can help me get my thoughts in order. This is something I've seen people bring up time and time again, and it frustrates me that I find it difficult to construct a decent argument against it despite feeling instinctively that it's a load of rubbish.

I often see people compare the treatment of gay people to the treatment of trans people. For example, I've seen people argue that saying trans women aren't women is the same as saying a gay person is just going through a phase. I've also seen people argue that suggesting the best thing for a young 'trans' person might not be to start taking hormone blockers or have surgery is similar to advocating for conversion therapy for gay people.

I don't believe these things are particularly similar but find it difficult to verbalise why. I think at its core it's that the only requirement for being gay is being attracted exclusively to the same sex, and that feeling is completely internal - nobody other than you can say whether you are or are not gay. Being trans, on the other hand, is related to physical reality and claiming to be a woman when you biologically aren't one isn't correct. Can anyone explain simply why the comparison doesn't work?

Milad believes in equality for all. What's yours is theirs. That's fair, right?

Still astonished at them being so open.

At the risk of staying the blindingly obvious, nothing obliges lesbians to find all other lesbians attractive

No, you don't get to reframe my sexuality and my boundaries. It's not a case of 'lesbians can be of any sex and you may not find some attractive', I am saying that I am exclusively homosexually attracted only to adult human females.

I would point out the also blindingly obvious, that a 'live and let live' approach has been rendered impossible by the TRA political lobby and males who wanted to change homosexual women's boundaries and bodily autonomy. They initiated this. There have actually been funded conferences on how to persuade and coerce homosexual females into giving sex to males, and articles written by males on how homosexual females are the most desired goal as the ultimate proof of validation: how do you think that feels to read? How do you think it feels to have males on radio actually talk openly about the expectation of homosexual women 'learning to cope' with sex with males?

I don't think we've ever had anyone who wasn't an MRA saying stuff like this

Renate here, a self-described"late transitioning MTF", reminds me very much of that person who writes for the Telegraph who published MRA screeds before they started wearing skirts. Similar opinions on transwomen in women's rugby too! I almost wonder if it actually is that person, but perhaps they simply conform to a type.

*I am saying that I am exclusively homosexually attracted only to adult human females.

And that was marched in the streets for by women, and considered a completely normal thing until a couple of years ago when males decided that females having those boundaries was inconvenient.

Thanks

At the risk of staying the blindingly obvious, nothing obliges lesbians to find all other lesbians attractive.

At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, lesbians are by definition attracted exclusively to females. That means not males, whatever social role or presentation they choose to adopt. Homosexual. Same sex attracted.

@MiladyRenata

I get it, people with privileges don't want to share them. It's always been that way.

And no, I don't think anyone should be given additional "rights" just because of their biology.

Well you don’t actually believe in equality. Not including biology in your idea of “equality” throws the door wide open to indirect discrimination.

the love that dare not speak its name; because men won't allow it to have a name.

I hope lesbians will get to take "lesbian" back in the next few years.

What about age, does that fall under however you define biology? Let’s throw that out too, everyone the same rights no matter what age they are.

Well you don’t actually believe in equality. Not including biology in your idea of “equality” throws the door wide open to indirect discrimination

Its all just greed. Males have all the male privelege they grew up with then want women's rights on top. None however volunteer for pay cuts or scrabble about finding childcare when the nanny calls in sick. Its all just point proving. they want it they take it and wonen are mean for not willingly giving it.

Its all just greed. Males have all the male privelege they grew up with then want women's rights on top. None however volunteer for pay cuts or scrabble about finding childcare when the nanny calls in sick. Its all just point proving.they want it they take it and wonen are mean for not willingly giving it

^^THIS. SO MANY TIMES OVER.

As far as I'm concerned, sex and gender mean the same thing and are essentially social roles

Er, I'm lesbian. I am not sexually attracted to someone of either sex performing stereotypes of social roles - I don't get turned on by males loading washing machines or being feminine. I'm exclusively sexually attracted to other females with female biology

This. But apparently that makes us "transphobic bigots".

@MiladyRenata

I just believe in equality for all.

Well until a fifth of women stop being raped or sexually assaulted by men, women need space to recover from that rape and assault, and to keep men away from them when they are particularly vulnerable.

It's not women's fault that there is no bloody equality. 🤣

Tell men to stop objectifying, commodify, raping, assaulting and murdering women. And then the provisions made for women to give them fucking equality, won't be necessary.

You might identify as a woman, but where the fucking hell is your knowledge of them or affinity with them?

Dear Lord. Men oppress women, and women after thousands of years finally manage to make some laws to limit it, and it's called a privilege.

At the risk of staying the blindingly obvious, nothing obliges lesbians to find all other lesbians attractive

At the risk of repetition, sexual orientation is protected by law.

By. Law.

And it's based on biological sex, not gender.

By.

Law.

Oh, and that's equality law. You know, the concept that you say you are upholding?

OK well I’ll make myself clear. If you, as a lesbian are not attracted to, or interested in a relationship with, transgender women, this does not make you transphobic. Argue against a phantom who believes it does by all means, but it is unhelpful to equate that phantom with me or trans women in general.

Do you believe that disability (biology) or age (biology) are giving people unnecessary additional rights and privilege? I mean free speech, the floor is yours but it’s quite a statement.

Or do you actually mean women and men should not have sex based rights?

And the LAW, in the form of the GRA allows you to change your legal SEX.

And it also allows for exceptions even when there is a grc.

Basedrops. Just to be clear on this, you’re comparing women with the disabled and the very old/young as examples of people who need special treatment in law? And you’re the feminist here, right?

I really feel we shouldn't lose sight of Milad 's stated opinion that women's rights are, in fact, privileges, and that we shouldn't really have them. I feel we would be remiss not to keep that at the forefront of our minds as the discussion continues. It does rather colour everything.

Not special treatment. Just adaptations that allow them to participate in life. Thats ok with you right?

@SarahTancredi

And it also allows for exceptions even when there is a grc.

Yep. And those exceptions which recognise when gender identity is not sex are in there to protect the dignity and safety of others.