Gay/trans false equivalence

[Toblerone345]

Not really sure how to word this but hoping someone slightly more eloquent than me can help me get my thoughts in order. This is something I've seen people bring up time and time again, and it frustrates me that I find it difficult to construct a decent argument against it despite feeling instinctively that it's a load of rubbish.

I often see people compare the treatment of gay people to the treatment of trans people. For example, I've seen people argue that saying trans women aren't women is the same as saying a gay person is just going through a phase. I've also seen people argue that suggesting the best thing for a young 'trans' person might not be to start taking hormone blockers or have surgery is similar to advocating for conversion therapy for gay people.

I don't believe these things are particularly similar but find it difficult to verbalise why. I think at its core it's that the only requirement for being gay is being attracted exclusively to the same sex, and that feeling is completely internal - nobody other than you can say whether you are or are not gay. Being trans, on the other hand, is related to physical reality and claiming to be a woman when you biologically aren't one isn't correct. Can anyone explain simply why the comparison doesn't work?

We now know if left alone many teenage trans/binary types grown up to be gay adults.
Interested to hear more on this. Would they have actually been gay, or would they still have felt they were the opposite sex to those to whom they were attracted? Are there studies/reports on this?

@MiladyRenata

So why do you think a person should be given special "rights" (or "privileges" to be more accurate) on account of her biological sex?

So you so understand the difference between sex and gender. You also understand that human beings cannot change sex. Now tell me again about transwomen being Women. And Lesbian. You're pretty homophobic aren't you?

Second question, what motivation do you perceive mtf trans have to join a sex which is frequently discriminated against? And moreover, what motivation have they to overcome the abhorrent phobia of transwomen?

Why are you so keen to get into women's spaces, MiladyRenata?

And why do you think lesbians want to have anything to do with male bodies? That comes unpleasantly close to the concept of gay conversion therapy as touted by a certain cyclist who said that lesbians just needed to learn to cope with penises.

Most women's rights are intrinsically on the basis of biology... are you saying these shouldn't exist... maternity anti-discrimination laws, rights to abortion/reproductive autonomy, contraception, breast feeding policies in the workplace, fertility treatment access, right to see a medical practitioner/counsellor/care assistant etc of the same sex, sex specific cancer treatment and fundraising?

If "the patriarchy"/authoritarian govt took gender based aspects of my life away... hairstyles, make up, clothing etc... well, I'd be slightly miffed, but I wouldn't miss them much. Meh, I hardly wear make up anyway, I'd be glad of the practical clothes with more pockets etc.

Take my sex based rights away however, and they directly control my body, which has direct consequences on the destiny my lifepath can take. It thus becomes not freely chosen, as I have to navigate around the risks of pregnancy.

I moved to Northern Ireland and I was shocked to discover abortion was outlawed there as well as in the south. I became even more angered and flabbergasted that it wouldn't even be allowed under the circumstance of rape. Profound visceral and psychological sex-based consequences of being female. Women in central America are charged with murder for miscarrying... that happens because of their sex, not their gender identity.

Women in central America are charged with murder for miscarrying...

That's interesting - anything I can read on that?

Nomon, yes, what motivation could the trans visitor here who think women's rights are unnecessary privileges possibly have for wanting access to those rights? Total mystery.

@PastMyBestBeforeDate

Interesting idea about not getting additional rights because of biology. Best take ramps away from public buildings then.

Actually spluttered at this

"El Salvador: Where women may be jailed for miscarrying"

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24532694

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-53436335

Here women can't even use their name.

That's awful BahHum. Ireland wasn't too humanitarian either on the abortion front until the death of Savita Hallapanaver and the subsequent referendum.

Lesbians are same sex attracted.
As are gay men.

Its called SEXuality not GENDERality

^^This. And then transwomen lament why "vulva-having" lesbians are not attracted to them in the slightest. There. Is. A reason. Your religion can be whatever you want about your self, but if I like a vagina, a penis repulses me, no matter what you believe yourself to be. I cannot change to fit anyone's narrative.

Strictly we give the same privileges to each sex. Males use the male version and females use the female version. So no women don't get extra. Ok, Men get extra in terms of male default.

Loved the ramps idea!

I just believe in equality for all.

I just believe in equality for all

Which is why women need their spaces and their sex based rights.

As far as I'm concerned, sex and gender mean the same thing and are essentially social roles

Er, I'm lesbian. I am not sexually attracted to someone of either sex performing stereotypes of social roles - I don't get turned on by males loading washing machines or being feminine. I'm exclusively sexually attracted to other females with female biology.

The right to be able to say this in public without losing my job, without being socially excluded, without having lesser legal rights than someone heterosexual, is pretty recent.

Now we have the political TRA agenda trying to undo this.

It appears from what you're saying that my 'privilege' of choosing sexual partners based on female biology is something I should be willing to give up (for the betterment of males, let's face it, there's nothing in this for me at all) and I'll presume you, like Rachel McKinnon and other TRA speakers, would like me to 'learn to cope' with sex with males who personally identify themselves as lesbian.

Which is shocking in its medievalism and sexism, because it implies that as a female I have no business seeking to enjoy sex or have a right of choice in it, but some kind of birth based duty to service males for their sexual needs and enjoyment. Which you'd have to be downright male supremacist not to see the huge, great, enormous issues with. Can you really not see this?

Those countries mentioned all appear to me to be particularly religious countries. I wish religion didn't exist for its sheer existence seems to be to oppress women.

I'm exclusively sexually attracted to other females with female biology.

Just to clarify too: that female with female biology can be performing any social role and appearance she likes without being any less hot. Seriously.

At the risk of staying the blindingly obvious, nothing obliges lesbians to find all other lesbians attractive.

You believe in a idea of equality that disadvantages all women.

You know the one that says "if women tried harder they would be able to run faster than men"

Can someone find the classic picture of equality, where the shortest child gets the biggest box so they can all watch the football? Your idea of equality is giving everyone the same sized box, not letting everyone watch the game.

The kind of equality propose by people who don't want to lose their advantages

This one?

I just believe in equality for all.

I'm afraid you're kidding yourself. You don't believe in equality for females at all.

Is this a joke? I don't think we've ever had anyone who wasn't an MRA saying stuff like this.

Who knows. This reminds me of that person who compared themselves to Rosa Parks and women to segregationists, and that person is a known activist.

Has everyone read We Just Want to Pee?
Head over to womenarehuman.com if you haven't.

I think I've seen ones with slightly different wording, as well.

At the risk of staying the blindingly obvious, nothing obliges lesbians to find all other lesbians attractive

So you accept that dating and attraction by its very nature is exclusionary and that male bodies are excluded from lesbianism?