Gay/trans false equivalence

[Toblerone345]

Not really sure how to word this but hoping someone slightly more eloquent than me can help me get my thoughts in order. This is something I've seen people bring up time and time again, and it frustrates me that I find it difficult to construct a decent argument against it despite feeling instinctively that it's a load of rubbish.

I often see people compare the treatment of gay people to the treatment of trans people. For example, I've seen people argue that saying trans women aren't women is the same as saying a gay person is just going through a phase. I've also seen people argue that suggesting the best thing for a young 'trans' person might not be to start taking hormone blockers or have surgery is similar to advocating for conversion therapy for gay people.

I don't believe these things are particularly similar but find it difficult to verbalise why. I think at its core it's that the only requirement for being gay is being attracted exclusively to the same sex, and that feeling is completely internal - nobody other than you can say whether you are or are not gay. Being trans, on the other hand, is related to physical reality and claiming to be a woman when you biologically aren't one isn't correct. Can anyone explain simply why the comparison doesn't work?

Gays are gay in their own right

Lesbians are lesbian in the own right

Straight people are straight in the own right

Black people are black in their own right

Deaf people are deaf in their own right

etc etc

They are merely existing unto themselves and seek assistance and recognition to be full members of society, they are not making statements that affect the ontology of others.

If trans people were "trans" in their own right, that would be fine and I would support it.

But through the statement "trans women are women", (ditto TMAM) they are making a statement that fundamentally alters the ontology of myself and every other female person. They alter the ontology of womanhood from femaleness to femininity and thereby forcibly change my status from that of a fully human person who has a female body, into an ideal of a demure, submissive feminine lady-brained person. (The basis for aeons of sexism). Thereby repositioning me into the power hierarchy of gender against my will. It's a profoundly political act by use of language.

BahHumbygge that was so wonderful, clear and powerful. Thank you.

There are obvious differences between being gay and being trans as one is about sexual and romantic attraction while the other is about gender identity. However there are a some crossovers and these are very relevant.

Firstly, although your sexuality doesn't change when your gender presentation does, the way it is perceived socially does. So if you are gay you become straight and vice versa. Being trans can therefore involve issues around having a minority sexuality.

Secondly, gender identity is very real, as is the condition of gender dysphoria where this does not match your body and hence birth assigned sex. It cannot easily be changed, and attempts to force that change through social disapproval of trans identities and gender non conformity can be very harmful.

So while there are significant differences in the experiences of gay and trans people, I don't think they can be separated completely. Both involve a way of thinking and feeling traditionally condemned by society as being out of line with the way someone "ought" to think and feel based on their body.

BahHumbygge very clear and nicely put. It is simple isn't it

Firstly, although your sexuality doesn't change when your gender presentation does, the way it is perceived socially does. So if you are gay you become straight and vice versa. Being trans can therefore involve issues around having a minority sexuality.

No, straight males who transition are not generally perceived as lesbians by wider society, however much they may want that to be the case. And straight females are not perceived as gay men.

You do not change your sexual orientation by conversion therapy, nor by adopting the cultural gender presentation of the opposite sex.

If you are a heterosexual, you do not change intonation homosexual via presentation, surgery or altering your documents.

There is no overlap between the issues facing a lesbian dealing with conversion therapy and a male trans person who wishes to be called a lesbian. None.

Intonation = into a.

Silly autocucumber.

For you Floral

I am so sorry that happened to you.

Firstly, although your sexuality doesn't change when your gender presentation does, the way it is perceived socially does. So if you are gay you become straight and vice versa.

Please stop presenting this as a given. It legitimises homophobia and enables porn-addled men to invade lesbian spaces.

Firstly, although your sexuality doesn't change when your gender presentation does, the way it is perceived socially does.

What do you mean by 'gender presentation', and why is it important to you?

Secondly, gender identity is very real, as is the condition of gender dysphoria where this does not match your body and hence birth assigned sex. It cannot easily be changed, and attempts to force that change through social disapproval of trans identities and gender non conformity can be very harmful.

What do you mean by 'gender identity', and in what way do you believe it 'does not match' the bodies of individuals who identify as transgender?

What has gender non conformity got to do with transgenderism? Is transgenderism based on stereotypes?

Firstly, although your sexuality doesn't change when your gender presentation does, the way it is perceived socially does. So if you are gay you become straight and vice versa. Being trans can therefore involve issues around having a minority sexuality.

Your sex doesn’t change when your ‘gender presentation’ does, so no, there is literally no change whatsoever to your sexual orientation as a result of transition. Heterosexual transsexual males are not lesbians.

It would be interesting to see a discrimination case on the basis of sexual orientation brought by a trans person. It would be fascinating to see a judge unpick that.

Lesbians are women attracted to other women. Trans women are lesbians.

...unless they are attracted to men which makes them straight.

Lesbians are same sex attracted.
As are gay men.

Its called SEXuality not GENDERality

If your friend says "I like pizza," you take him at his word.

If your friend says "I am a pizza," you form your own opinions on the matter.

Ultimately the trans movement is based on denying reality and all the horrible and absurd consequences of the trans movement follow on from the denial, and from coercing/cajoling/bullying other people into going along with that denial.

The protections in the equalities act prevent people with protected characteristics from being discrimination. They are carefully balanced to protect everyone.

Gay rights resulted in equal age for an adult sexual relationship and equal right to marry. The ability to adopt or foster children was also made equal. The only people who lost something were people who wanted to discriminate. This is exactly the same for religion, disability, sex, pregnancy and maternity and gender reassignment.

Someone who self IDs or who holds a GRC wishing to have the right to be treated as the legal sex they are not in every facet of life goes beyond the existing equalities act which has specific areas where this does not happen in order to balance competing rights. These competing rights are not the right to discriminate. They are the right to bodily autonomy, dignity and effective safe guarding. The accurate recording of sex is the key to safety in vulnerable situations and sport, the ability to track statistics which inform policies and practice to alleviate and tackle sex discrimination.

My request to have a woman perform intimate medical care is about my right to bodily autonomy. I have the legal right to a same sex medical professional because this is an example of where someone whose rights are protected under gender reassignment by being treated the same as all members of their actual sex.

If this changes to someone male appears, I refuse and am now guilty of gender reassignment discrimination
my previously protected right has been removed and attempting to exercise it is a hate crime.

My right to have a female medical professional inserting a speculum into my vagina for necessary medical screening would be treated as discrimination comparable to sacking someone for being homosexual.

I don’t think they are comparable.

As far as I'm concerned, sex and gender mean the same thing, and this is essentially a social role. I don't believe that a person's reproductive organs should define their identity or the kind of person they are allowed to be.

As far as I'm concerned, sex and gender mean the same thing, and this is essentially a social role.

Go tell it to the pregnancy forum. Are you trolling?

Can we all just appreciate that homophobic tropes like that a male person can be a lesbian are being promoted by the trans visitor on a thread where the realities of gay conversion therapy have been discussed.

I mean, I welcome all voices to make their case, but I do want people to see very clearly what is being said here, and what that means about standard trans ideological perspectives.

@FloralBunting - that is such a sad story Floral. I hope you have some loving people in your life now. Of course it is so, so, wrong for TRA's to appropriate your trauma to bully people, but we all know, they appropriate the lives and experiences of women every day for their own agenda.

Also want to send you my love and