Gay/trans false equivalence

[Toblerone345]

Not really sure how to word this but hoping someone slightly more eloquent than me can help me get my thoughts in order. This is something I've seen people bring up time and time again, and it frustrates me that I find it difficult to construct a decent argument against it despite feeling instinctively that it's a load of rubbish.

I often see people compare the treatment of gay people to the treatment of trans people. For example, I've seen people argue that saying trans women aren't women is the same as saying a gay person is just going through a phase. I've also seen people argue that suggesting the best thing for a young 'trans' person might not be to start taking hormone blockers or have surgery is similar to advocating for conversion therapy for gay people.

I don't believe these things are particularly similar but find it difficult to verbalise why. I think at its core it's that the only requirement for being gay is being attracted exclusively to the same sex, and that feeling is completely internal - nobody other than you can say whether you are or are not gay. Being trans, on the other hand, is related to physical reality and claiming to be a woman when you biologically aren't one isn't correct. Can anyone explain simply why the comparison doesn't work?

@MiladyRenata

I get it, people with privileges don't want to share them. It's always been that way.

And no, I don't think anyone should be given additional "rights" just because of their biology.

No I’m just asking you to define biology.

Argue against a phantom who believes it does by all means, but it is unhelpful to equate that phantom with me or trans women in general.

Earlier you said sex and gender are the same and a social role. And that someone who transitions changes their sexual orientation.

And the LAW, in the form of the GRA allows you to change your legal SEX.

And we all know that this creates a legal fiction and does not change actual biological sex, and therefore has no bearing on sexual orientation.

Your circular arguments are even confusing you.

For at least the 3rd time.

Rights = for everyone (not being discriminated against, voting, owning property, bodily integrity etc.)

Privileges = for some (all women shortlists, quotas for women on boards etc)

Not rocket science.

OK well I’ll make myself clear. If you, as a lesbian are not attracted to, or interested in a relationship with, transgender women, this does not make you transphobic. Argue against a phantom who believes it does by all means, but it is unhelpful to equate that phantom with me or trans women in general.

Rachel McKinnon, the medal winning TW athlete, is a phantom?

And Stonewall's a phantom too?

Your circular arguments are even confusing you

See how hard it is when you aren't allowed to deal in actual facts.

If you have no idea why sex based rights need to be specifically defined to create equality you would benefit from educating yourself.

Privileges = for some (all women shortlists, quotas for women on boards etc)

Because societal sexism means that without these men are massively over represented.

Stop being sexist and we won't need them. And all women short lists don't seem to bother anyone when transwomen make them. Thats just another " if I can't have it no one can" toddler tantrum

Oh, how interesting. The thread had been referencing women's rights. No one has mentioned AWS or sex based quotas until Milad did.

So, just so we're not talking at cross purposes, Milad, you do think that women are entitled to rights based on the particular issues around their biology? Wouldn't want to misrepresent you, because I am going to keep bringing it up otherwise.

The “privileges” you mention are actually positive action relating to objective justification in the equalities act.

Person born as a man is blind to Male privilege and why action has been needed to ensure women have equality of opportunity- colour me shocked

Men have always tried to get lesbians - women attracted to their own biological sex - to see them as viable partners.

It’s just that now they’re using a new tactic.

Trying to follow the logic of this is making me think about cutted up pear.

Milady thanks for answering my questions. It's helpful to understand what rights and privileges you're thinking of.

Can I ask why you specifically object to women's short lists or board quotas? Do you have any examples of situations or industries which men or trans men and women are struggling to access, and where having a specific advantage for women is a problem?

I'm interested, because I recently saw a church that was proud to be inclusive, saying on its website that it's preachers were '50% male and 50% women/non-binary folks'. It didn't seem very fair to me, because that could easily mean that none of their preachers are women.

I can imagine trans person would feel the same if there was a list for men and a list for women, but nothing for trans men, trans women etc. So I do empathise.

That's the reason that I, along with a lot of people in this forum, would join in advocating for a 'third space'. This is often used to describe toilets etc, but I think it could also apply to the issues you describe.

How would you feel about that? Would it solve the problem to have situations/posts/shortlists that are only available to transwomen, and then some that are only available to women? If not, would you mind explaining why?

Thanks.

withgraceinmyheart, that’s an excellent point about women losing out. Have you heard of Pips Bunce?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6197705/City-workers-hit-gender-fluid-banker-works-days-Philip-Pippa.html

And then there’s this person. Quite clearly an MRA who doesn’t like the idea of women having so called ‘privileges’. Though in this case the rule has always been one man one woman - so you couldn’t even say it discriminated against men.

Emilia obviously just wants to fuck with women. And I really wonder how many so called transwomen have the same agenda?

All those woke men and lib fems defending and applauding them are going to look pretty bloody stupid when they grow up realise what’s actually going on here.

4w.pub/male-wins-female-leadership-position-in-nyc-dem-council/

Emilia obviously just wants to fuck with women. And I really wonder how many so called transwomen have the same agenda

Well many swimmung pools and gyms etx have done away with women only sessions. Nothing stopped men calling up and requesting that there were men only sessioms. However whenever mej however there gender presentation were refused access to the women only sessioms , they called up and got them shut down.

Same thing in vancover with rape crisis centres. Activists could have campaigned and fundraised with full support for specialist services. Like women did. I mean the first "shelters" were just womens' houses

Absolutely none of it is anything to do wjth improving things fir trans people or Frankly they would have kept quiet and carried on with women turning a blind eye to less than 5000 people occasionally using a facility.

Instead they included everyone under the trans umbrella to render sex segregation as problematic as possible so we do away with it completely.

Ita all about removing from.women and creating permanent victim status because lets face it there's no heakthcare provider that could keep up with this.

None of it helps trans people

It benefits males. Every time.

@BaseDrops

Trying to follow the logic of this is making me think about cutted up pear.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

That was THE best day

mil

So you do agree that women have to have certain rights based on their sex?

You just don't like the ones specifically designed to address sexism? The unequal balance between men and women, because of patriarchy.

As I said, identify as, but no affinity with.

@MiladyRenata

And the LAW, in the form of the GRA allows you to change your legal SEX.

Yes, because Parliament were homophobically in crisis about approving same-sex marriage.

Seriously. This isn't difficult.

Despite having a GRC, exemptions are still allowed. Because no one, unless you're three or four years of age, believes that a person can actually change sex.

Prior to the GRA people lost the ability to be treated as their acquired sex because a man did not want to financially support his model ex-wife. Who was a transwoman.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corbett_v_Corbett

@BaseDrops

Trying to follow the logic of this is making me think about cutted up pear.

Just caught up on this thread. First of all for Floral. Having been through similar (but nowhere near as bad) I can confirm the church's treatment of gay people can be incredibly backward and damaging. The church I used to go to would have done similar for a trans person too (lots of prayer that the individual could accept the sex they are rather than transition). So rejection by Christianity is one similarity.

Obviously there are big differences between being gay and being trans already outlined on the thread.

The other similarities are being born 'different' to most people and having no control over it. Most gay / trans people try and deny and suppress being gay or trans before they admit it to themselves and others. Many have been made to feel ashamed.

I think both gay and trans people struggle to live their lives happily and authentically unless they come out.

Hi @withgraceinmyheart

As it happens, I'm a classical liberal and, as a believer in the merit principle, would be delighted to see the end of any form of gender based discrimination, including quotas and all women shortlists. This applies whether or not trans women count as women.

So how do you tackle SEX based discrimination if you remove the positive discrimination implemented to counter act it?