Good Breitbart article on the tactics of the political left

[Zinco]

www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/07/23/nolte-mens-health-wants-joe-rogan-blacklisted-for-vile-transphobia/

"We all know how this bullshit of “safetyism” works on the fascist left. You fascists accuse someone you disagree with of making you or POC’s or whoever feel “unsafe,” and suddenly expression that speech become “violence” and that physical act of violent speech must be blacklisted and canceled.

Meanwhile, according to the left, the terrorists in Black Lives Matter and Antifa who are burning, looting marauding, and toppling are not committing violence. Their actual violence is speech."

"When you accuse someone of “putting lives in danger” over a perfectly reasonable and science-based discussion about transitioning, especially when just a few years ago these arguments were treated as mainstream; when you accuse someone of “fanning the flames of hate” and being “dangerous,” that is way beyond a debate.

That is about silencing someone, about accusing them of being responsible in some way for a suicide or hate crime they had nothing to do with."

@KingFredsTache

Reflect on one's views: will history judge us who are opposed to trans women in women's bathrooms in the same light as southern segregationists who opposed to blacks in white-only areas?

No, because our society already segregates in these situations by sex and we don't think that is a civil rights issue. We do this largely because 98% (NINETY EIGHT PER CENT!) of sexual offences are perpetrated by males. And seeing as absolutely no one can appear to give an objective point, upon which law and policy can be made, that a male who 'identifies as female' comes out out the high risk sex class of male and into the low risk sex class of female (full SRS, top surgery, hormones, makeup, long hair, just his declaration?), then I don't think it is in any way comparable to not wanting black and white people using the same facilities.

I cannot believe I still even need to say this stuff, but the 'not letting males use the ladies if they want to is just like not letting black people use the same toilets as white people' argument still appears to be coming up!

My use of the segregationist example was just illustrative of a scenario where the people opposed to change were in a minority in terms of social views. Feel free to replace it with men opposed to giving women the vote or any other scenario where a minority disagree with the mood of society in terms of social change.

The point was that when you're opposed to social change that the majority of society thinks is good, there's a chance that you will be perceived as being out of touch/traditionalist/wrong.

If our beliefs on the trans rights matter are so glaringly correct, then everyone except hardcore trans activists would agree with us. The fact that our views seem to go against the majority modern liberal thought means that the argument isn't as clear and obvious to society as we see it.

What do they see that we don't, or what do we see that they don't?

Nobody who posts on here identifies with the far right...

Big assumption to make, how can you possibly know let alone present as fact?

that the majority of society thinks is good

You have already made a bankrupt analogy between segregation in the American South last century and sex segregated toilets. Now you are claiming that the majority are in favour of the trans lobby's aims? Can you provide a credible source for that assertion?

but other than that I couldn't give two shits what you think - your agenda is clear to me and I despise it

Sounds like a great, humanistic, forward looking movement you're part of there there. Not!

Ca you not step outside of the debate and look at yourself?

Big assumption to make, how can you possibly know let alone present as fact

This is a woman's rights board on mumsnet; and I've been posting for long enough to recognise most of the people posting. We're all here for pretty much the same reasons, and many of us have travelled a very similar path, even if our backgrounds are different.

women's rights board

In fact identity politics is pretty much the main issue for most of us, here. The only people talking about being on the "right side of history", are people like Owen Jones.So sure he is on the right side of it, he feels no need to actually engage in substantive argument or debate on any issue

Yes. This is a recurrent theme. Debate is problematic. Freedom of speech is problematic. These ideas have colonised a significant section of the left. In many ways some parts of this thread exemplify the tactics used by those who subscribe to the identity politics faction. There is a repetitive failure to engage with the core issues. And there is a recurrent use of crimes of adjacency and false equivalence to denounce and silence. The aim? It is to distract from the existential threat to freedom of speech and debate. It is to distract from the ongoing failure of vast swathes of the media to do its job and report current events. Enlightenment values are under sustained attack by people whose authoritarian zealotry is more explicit every day. These are not minor events, to be dismissed with mindless slogans.

This is a woman's rights board on mumsnet; and I've been posting for long enough to recognise most of the people posting

You realise MN is humongously big and international, right?! It's not some secret little club, with all the same views - you're seriously naive if you think that just because you have been here years and can recognise a lot of the posters, that you can deduce as a result that it's a fact there won't be far right posters with agendas on here.

Lemonade
You are making snide accusations about other posters being far right. Provide evidence because smearing people with zero substantiation? It's all a bit McCarthy....

When our views, however right they seem to be to us, are in opposition to the young and liberal, we must be prepared to consider the possibility that our views are old-fashioned and illiberal

I've never understood why "old-fashioned" is relevant, or why we would think young people have more insight into things than older people.

But there is no way I am going to call people who are clearly not liberal, liberal. You aren't liberal just because you say so, or don't care what sex things people do in their homes, those are not what makes a person a liberal. You have to actually support the foundational values of liberal democracy, which typically these young people don't. Often quite explicitly.

We know there are posters here with an agenda, thanks.

You realise MN is humongously big and international, right?! It's not some secret little club, with all the same views - you're seriously naive if you think that just because you have been here years and can recognise a lot of the posters, that you can deduce as a result that it's a fact there won't be far right posters with agendas on here

To be honest, I'm not big on conspiracy thinking......although i know that is what motivates many these days. conspiracy just feeds into the narrative, and is sustains it. The idea that if someone is disagreeing with you, or seeking debate, then either they or their sources must be in some way contaminated.

I'm talking about this particular board, anyway, and this thread. and no, i'm not naive....like most of the women here i'm concerned about very certain issues as they effect women and girls and children more generally. After a while you get to know some of people's stories, and you become familiar with them.

I can see you too.

You are making snide accusations about other posters being far right

No, just saying it's ridiculous to think that there will not be any far right views on here and present as fact that there isn't as you know all the posters all over the board.

I can see you too

far right posters with agendas on here

You have an agenda as well. Everyone does. Some people's are more rigid and ideologically based than others, though. You can always spot an ideologue of whatever colour. Most of us have been round the block enough times not to be easily manipulated, or know our own minds.

No, just saying it's ridiculous to think that there will not be any far right views on here and present as fact that there isn't as you know all the posters all over the board

What is this great evil you are fighting, and always on the look-out for?

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

This is a woman's rights board on mumsnet; and I've been posting for long enough to recognise most of the people posting

You realise MN is humongously big and international, right?! It's not some secret little club, with all the same views - you're seriously naive if you think that just because you have been here years and can recognise a lot of the posters, that you can deduce as a result that it's a fact there won't be far right posters with agendas on here.

The majority of the posters in this discussion are known to each other, and a lot of us have a good sense of where the others are coming from politically, largely based on previous discussions on various things.

A lot are disaffected Labour voters, many have been activists. A few, like Bovary are more moderate right. I'm something more like a distributist but most would probably think of me as a marxist of some sort.

What tends to be similar through all is a serious problem with the intellectual framework of identity politics. (In fact I don't think id politics are leftist at all, I think they function largely to shore up neoliberalism, and they are profoundly racist in the true, 19th century, sense of the word.)

What do they see that we don't, or what do we see that they don't?

This is an interesting question, and one that I have asked myself a lot over the past couple of years. My DH often brings it up as well when we talk about it - he is with me on this issue, but is traditionally not as 'leftie' as I am. And I'm sure that many of the other, normally left leaning Labour voting, women on this board has asked themselves the same question. Is it because we are sub-consciously frothing hateful 'right wingers', is it because we are too thick to understand, or is it something else?

I think a lot of it is how the whole trans issue has been framed. Of course there was the piggy backing on the LGB movement, despite gender identity not really having anything to do with sexual orientation. And we still see it now, with anyone having any objections to wholeheartedly adopting trans ideology as akin to the homophobes of the past with section 28 etc.

Women's rights? HELL YEAH!

Disability rights? HELL YEAH!

Black rights? HELL YEAH!

Gay rights? HELL YEAH!

Trans rights? Of course, HELL YEAH!

And if you were to ask most people 'do you think transgender people should have equal rights' or 'should people identify however the want' then most people (myself included) would answer 'of course'.

And for a lot of people here is where the thinking ends. Trans rights are human rights, no debate.

But, as I have found out over the last few years, you really don't have to scratch the surface very hard to come across more questions that are not as easy to answer.

Should any male be able to self identify as a woman, with zero gatekeeping, and then have access to women's rights and protections?

If a boy likes pink and glitter, does that mean he might have a 'female brain' and be born in the wrong body?

Should children be given untested off label drugs to halt their perfectly normally developing bodies from growing further?

If a woman has asked for a female nurse to carry out her smear test, is she then a bigot for feeling uncomfortable and anxious if that 'female nurse' is a 'self identifying woman' who is very obviously male?

We have seen in recent polls on this issue that the responses are very different depending on how the question is framed.

Lisa Nandy was publicly asked 'should a male rapist be allowed to go to a female prison if he identifies as a woman'. Nandy was clearly uncomfortable answering this question and the answer is so clearly 'no, that's batshit' but has gone too far down a road to be able to say that.

It was notable that she got zero support from OJ and the likes on Twitter on the answer to that question, because questions like that are brushed under the carpet, no one wants to answer them.

I have struggled with 'are we the baddies' on this a few times, but have given it a lot of thought and the above is the conclusion I have come to. I just cannot get on board with what trans activism and trans ideology advocates for. I don't care if that puts me at odds with everything else I believe, it's irrelevant.

I am still, as ever, always welcome to being challenged on this issue, but the longer it goes on, the more sure I am that my views on this are valid.

What is this great evil you are fighting, and always on the look-out for?

It's the terrible fear of losing control of the narrative...

I can see you too

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

Can you explain what you mean by that remark? I am calling you out.

Can you explain what you mean by that remark?

That wasn't my remark, I was just biscuitting the ridiculous we seeeee yoooo for a differing opinion or comment as it wasn't even worthy of a response.

That was Justhadathought's comment, not mine if you read it properly.

Well I do care about you because you are exactly the kind of fascist racist faux-intellectual (and probably a Trump bot) who is determined to undermine democracy and will make the US a worse place for my children to live in

Such stunning insight- actually utterly deluded. In reality I'm a UK citizen who voted Labour in every election from 1979 until Corbyn and his band of anti- semitic , misogynistic, sexist and indeed racist followers decided to destroy the Labour Party.

Goosefoot justhad
You know, one of the things that is really lovely about this forum is that we can have discussions despite our political differences. Increasingly, the main issues transcend political parties. They are about where people stand on issues of definitional principles.

What do they see that we don't, or what do we see that they don't?

Most of them haven't given it a moment's thought and have been persuaded by the 'it's just like gay rights' argument which doesn't stand up to scrutiny. But as long as they don't think about it, they can convince themselves that they are on the 'right side'.

As soon as you start asking questions like 'how can a man feel like a woman?' or 'what's the difference between living as a man and living as a woman?' most intelligent people can see that the whole ideology is based on sexism and stereotypes.

Ask them what they mean by 'transwomen are women' and see what answer you get. Because only men can be transwomen so they're saying that men are women if they say they are. Which is insane.