'Like adoptive parents, who want to be accepted as being the same as biological parents'

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Trans women are like adoptive parents, who want to be accepted as being the same as biological parents. And they are accepted as such, despite the differences in how they became parents in the first place; and if society could do the same for trans women, we’d be in a better place.”

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/jul/11/uks-only-trans-philosophy-professor-to-jk-rowling-harry-potter-helped-me-become-a-woman

I'd be interested in the reaction of adoptive parents or children to that analogy. It doesn't work for me.

I think that society would agree that there is a similarity in that both are a legal fiction.
Adoptive parents understand they are not the biological parents of a child.

Not an adoptive parent, but I have certainly seen adoptive parents who say it is hurtful when people say things that suggest they are "different" than biological parents.

But most seem aware of the realities. I have found, very anecdotally, that people who adopt older children rather than infants seem more comfortable with this.

Much of the fuss when it happens comes from the word "real". As in "are you the real parents?" And it's easy to see why, what does it mean that adoptive parents aren't "real?"

Adoptive parents can't just magically self-identity as parents. They have to go through a lengthy legal process. Nor does their desire to be a parent impact on the rights of biological parents in any way.

This analogy isn't accurate. It's more like, imagine there is a group of 'trans parents' who don't have kids but demand to be called parents anyway. They get nursery places and child tax credits - despite not having a kid. If you point out they aren't really parents because they don't have children, you are called a raging bigot and are cancelled with shrieks of 'trans parents are parents!' Trans parents claim that it's not essential to have children to be a parent - in fact, being a parent is all about feelings and self identification. If you feel like a parent you just are a parent.

Then over time the trans parents get upset with parents who have children (sorry, 'cis' parents).The cis parents keep on talking about childbirth, and pregnancy, and child care, and keep on posting pictures of their kids online. This is very triggering to trans parents, so the other parents are encouraged to change their language. Indeed, the Mumsnet logo is deeply upsetting so it is edited to remove the children - after all, it is wrong to assume that parents must have children!

I am an adoptive parent and I read that story and thought today what a daft analogy it was. If adoptive parents did believe themselves to be the same as biological parents they’d be doing a disservice to their children and the impacts that separation from their biological parents have. Although I absolutely adore my child, I am completely aware that I am not his biological mother and it wouldn’t help him to think that I was.

I’d say we’re equally valid but different.

Adoptive parents find it hurtful when it's implied they aren't a child's 'real' parents. On the other hand, it's become well known in adoption that the child needs to know they had biological parents, which are different to the adoptive parents, sometimes they continue to have a relationship with the biological parents through letter contact or face to face in open adoptions, and adoptive parents do not try to erase, replace or hide the fact of the existence of the biological parents. Because child's best interests are paramount.

Spot the difference: one of these things takes into account the needs and feelings of other people. One of these things accepts two different things existing side by side acknowledging and respecting difference. One of these doesn't try to lie or hide reality.

if society could do the same for trans women, we’d be in a better place.”

If society would just pretend and not keep banging on about their own needs mattering too.....

The Guardian is just Pravda now, for the trans ideology - fawning, grovelling and lying. There have been 3 or 4 articles in as many days, all trotting out the party line

Adoptive parents and biological parents are not the same though. I think anyone insisting to an adopted person that this is the case is gaslighting to some extent.

The purpose of adoption (or at least it should be) is about the welfare of the child. It doesn't exist to validate the would be adoptive parents, although arguably there have been plenty of instances in history where the lines are blurred on this.

We decided in the last couple of decades that lying to adoptees about their origins was harmful and not best practice. That doesn't negate good or happy relationships some adoptees have with their adopted parents - it helps when everyone is on the same page re what is truthful.

A legal fiction is just that really. It doesn't cancel out reality. Almost everytime I go to my GP I'm asked about my family history of XYZ. The only correct answer is I don't know. I could reel off a list of health complications my adoptive family have suffered but denying reality helps no one least of all me.

@JohnandMary

I am an adoptive parent and I read that story and thought today what a daft analogy it was. If adoptive parents did believe themselves to be the same as biological parents they’d be doing a disservice to their children and the impacts that separation from their biological parents have. Although I absolutely adore my child, I am completely aware that I am not his biological mother and it wouldn’t help him to think that I was.

I’d say we’re equally valid but different.

I'm glad to see, this @JohnandMary, as it's what I hoped was the case, but I'm not an adopter so didn't want to presume.

I don't agree that there's a similarity at all, and to call adoptive parenting a legal fiction is offensive and inaccurate.

• Does 'parent' mean one who produces offspring?
• yes, that's right.
• So in what way is an adoptive parent a 'parent'?
• Well, they have the legal relationship of parent to the child, and they do all the things a parent does.
• Can you describe what that means, "all the things a parent does", without using circular definitions or resorting to stereotypes?
• Sure, it means the child is part of their family and household, they are responsible for their care and well being, food and shelter nurturing, and meeting their physical and emotional needs, making sure their educational needs are met, raising them to adulthood, being grandparent to their children, etc. etc.

• Does 'woman' mean adult human female?
• yes, that's right.
• So in what way is a transwoman a 'woman'?
• Well, if they have a GRC they have the legal designation of 'woman' and they do all the things a woman does.
• Can you describe what that means, "all the things a woman does", without using circular definitions or resorting to stereotypes?
• ... ... ... ...

My best friend and his husband have adopted a little boy, they do not claim to know what it is like to be pregnant or give birth, they do not demand access to the maternity unit at the local hospital, they are open about the fact they are not the biological parents, they don’t want any input into local breastfeeding services nor do they demand the local midwives visit them or call their patients cis-parents.

I imagine that it’s like the adoptive parents forcing those around them to accept they had actually given birth to the child when everyone knows that’s not the case.

Forcing people to accept that they biologically the child’s parents.
Finally denying or erasing the existence of the actual biological parents.

Is there anything these people won't appropriate to try to get their own way?

It's widely accepted now that lying to a child about the fact that they were adopted and not telling them that their parents are not their biological parents is not in the best interests of the child and is a big no no. So the argument is a non-starter in the first place.

Adoptive parents are not the same as biological parents in all respects. The genetic code is different. The experience of becoming a parent is different. Adoptive children may face different challenges to biological children.

Transwomen are not the same as women in all respects.
The genetic code is different. The experience of becoming a woman is different. Women face different challenges.

Where adoptive parents and biological parents are exactly the same is that they are both parents with the same duties of love and responsibility towards their children. This is the important fact for children - they need to know that their parents and their family is just as valued and strong as any other family. They don't need to be told that there are no material differences in the real world - they don't get lied to and told they are biologically the children of their adoptive parents.

Who are the adoptive children in the TRA analogy? Oh yes, the TRAs themselves who need every fact massaged to meet their narcissistic need.

I'm not an adoptive parent myself but my children are donor conceived so I'm very keen on messages about all family types being legitimate. I don't tell the children, however, that no one has a father living in their house to make the fact that they don't have a father living in their house more palatable. They know the truth - our setup is different and it's not always ideal. My job as a parent is to help them live with the truths that make up our lives.

Parents are the people who nurse you through the worst illnesses possible, both physical and mental, who change nappies, who spend time educating their kids and supporting them, who put their kids first.
Nothing to do with biology.

It's not hard to find online the accounts of adult adoptees who feel they suffered emotional harm and have a lot of anger about the erasure of their reality and their biological parents by those who wanted to be positive about their adoption and the 'realness' of their adoptive parents.

Those bonds, the reality, people's truth and stories and feelings matter. Adoption is a complicated walk along a tightrope of it all, but even things like 'gotcha' celebration days now are more recognised as being for the adoptive parents a wonderful joyful anniversary of receiving their beloved child - and for the child, a trauma anniversary of leaving family/loved foster families/going to people they didn't know well/ a legal end to their contact with their biological family.

If you want to draw the TW parallel - it's the same issues there that erasure can be a joyful thing for one group, and at the same time it can be trauma and damage to the other. Everybody's needs and truths matter.

I’m an adoptive parent and it is horseshit.

I think we’re accepted as parents because we are actually parenting. Bedtimes, homework, eating vegetables. It’s not about our identity, it’s about what we actually do.

I go to a mothers’ support group.
When the conversation invariably turns to pregnancy and birth, I listen to people’s stories. I don’t start getting upset and saying that they are exclusionary that they are “adoptionphobes” because “not all mothers give birth”. When they ask about my birth story I tell them I don’t have one but happy to tell them about the day I first met DD.

We often talk about the birth family with DD, always kindly and with love. We don’t try to write them out of existence. We’re very clear DD has two mums and two dads. There’s no pretence that we are her biological parents.

OK we don’t tell everyone (ie random strangers in the street) but we’re open about it with the people that we know. Friends, Colleagues, school teachers, doctors. If a doctor asks about her family health history, I don’t give mine as it’s not relevant.

And I agree with others it takes ages to get approved. They want to be sure you’re committed, resilient and understand the difference and implications of adopting. You don’t just change your profile description to parent on twitter and get handed a child!

That seems to be deliberately provocative.

Adoptive parents know how their child came to their family. Haven't read about a lobby of adoptive parents saying ''we are the biological parents, if you disagree that's cis parent privilege''.

An adoptive parent may not be the biological parent but they are the person who parents the child and thus fulfills the role of the child's parent.
To equate transwomen with women you would have to accept that there was a way to **^^women. Good luck with trying to define that!

To woman Was meant to be in italics as I couldn't find quotation marks

We don’t try to get breastfeeding support services or birth centres closed down because they are excluding adoptive parents.

Nor are we claiming sole right to use the word parent, all others are cis-parents. Anyone who objects should be cancelled.

Adoptive parents arent pretending they are biologically related to their children in the way extreme trans people insist we pretend they are biologically the opposite sex.

Also, adoptive parents do actually have children, they are actually parenting these children, and are experiencing the life of a parent in a way almost identical to bio parents (obviously not all parent experiences are the same but they all fall under the category of parent's experiences).

Unlike transwomen (and same but change the sex for transmen) who aren't actually women, nor do they have any idea what it's like to be a woman, and who are not experiencing life in any way similar to any women.

I think there's just a lack of understanding of the difference between things that are different and things that are unequal.
Adoptive parents raising a child are as equally valid as biological parents raising their child, without the facts surrounding that and the experiences being identical.
Transwomen are as equally valid as women, but the facts surrounding that and the experiences of both aren't identical. Transwomen aren't actually women and they don't need to be to be recognised as such or treated as such to be valued equally.
Different does not always mean unequal.

If the writer of the piece was trying to argue that no one insists adoptive parents are actually the biological parents and that they gave birth and legal documents should be amended to reflect that, and that ignoring the biological reality is actually harmful, yet they are still recognised and valued for what they are I could get behind that as a way to view transwomen.
Live as you want and call yourself what you want but don't twist reality and legal recognition of reality to suit that.