'Like adoptive parents, who want to be accepted as being the same as biological parents'

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Trans women are like adoptive parents, who want to be accepted as being the same as biological parents. And they are accepted as such, despite the differences in how they became parents in the first place; and if society could do the same for trans women, we’d be in a better place.”

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/jul/11/uks-only-trans-philosophy-professor-to-jk-rowling-harry-potter-helped-me-become-a-woman

I'd be interested in the reaction of adoptive parents or children to that analogy. It doesn't work for me.

It's a nonsensical analogy.

Adoptive parents do not demand that biological parents don't talk about pregnancy, they don't demand that biological parents talk about "acquiring their children" rather than "giving birth" to them.

From reading the adoption board I get the impression adoptive parents get quite annoyed at people who have only parented biologically insisting they are qualified to give useful advice. There doesn't seem any desire at all to pretend the experiences are exactly the same.

What everyone else has said really.

We don't get a certificate saying we gave birth to our children.
(So any time my DD's need to show their long 'birth' certificate it 'outs' them as adopted.)
When being asked family medical history we say we don't have it / it's limited as they are adopted.
We declare it to schools so they qualify for PP.
I don't go around everywhere saying people can't talk about giving birth because it is triggering, neither do I force myself into NCT groups and then demand they don't talk about labour.
We talk to the DC about their birth parents and they have a whole 'life story book' (the complete opposite of erasing someone's past).

Load of twaddle.

Sorry I have not read the full thread. And I’m a little off topic. I have thought about the similarities between people being allowed to change their birth certificate info. As an adopted person I cannot change my birth certificate. My birth certificate is actually a problem for some jobs as I cannot show a long certificate (I work in a heavily regulated environment), I have previously had to tell my interviewer I am adopted to explain why I cannot give the correct document. I don’t really have an issue with this as I fully understand my birth certificate is a piece of factual information that cannot be changed. It’s pretty inconvenient and means I cannot keep this information private even though I have no knowledge or recollection of being anyone other than my name! Luckily I have never been discriminated against due to it, but I can imagine it may change someone’s perception of me. I accept this is just something I have to deal with for the rest of my life. Not my fault, means little to me, but an inconvenience.

However I find it frustrating (Maybe that’s not the word) that others are allowed to change the facts on theirs and ‘lose’ their old identity. This could even be after committing a crime as the first identity. It could be after having their own children. It could be many, many years into their life. I have been me, my name, with my family, my identity, since I was several weeks old. I know nothing else and have no desire to look into it who I was for the first few weeks of my life. Yet I doubt the authorities would ever allow adopted people to change the facts surrounding their birth certificates.

The analogy is a load of rubbish in my opinion, it feels like someone is clutching at straws.

I don’t think I have explained myself well sorry. It’s just something I have mulled on from time to time from an adopted child perspective.

Oh am I have never had a desire to trace my history. I am so so very glad that life story books and seeing your birth family and letters etc wasn’t the done thing back then. I liked knowing my family is my family, they are my history, I am their history. I was however made aware from a very young age and have an amazing family.

I do wonder how family tree research will be affected. It’s frowned upon by some if an adopted person puts themselves into the family tree of their adoptive family (without mentioning you are adopted).

Thank you, everyone, for such thoughtful and thought-provoking responses. When I saw that sentence in The Guardian, I was astonished that the Professor Philosophy at the OU could make such a claim, as I was sure it wasn't what adoptive parents themselves would say.

This critique of the whole article is worth reading

twitter.com/yatakalam/status/1281943218591064071

Oops I don't think I did that properly. Try it like this:

twitter.com/yatakalam/status/1281912778228412419

Adoptive single parent to two here and a newbie to the trans debate so I have no agenda or axe to grind. What I would say, though, is that I very definitely do not want to be accepted as being the same as all biological parents. Some biological parents abuse and neglect their babies and children so horrifically that their lives are totally blighted, regardless of the input of love, time and commitment from fellow adopters and foster carers. This argument smacks to me of someone promoting the interests of a minority group by latching onto another minority group to garner sympathy.

As adopters, we have plenty of our own battles to fight in society; please don’t try to conflate issues and confuse people.

Could the analogy have been made as adoptive parents are seen as good people? Saviours? Adoptees are often told ‘you were lucky’ to be adopted (by good people). Society rarely thinks ill of those who choose to adopt, they are seen as generous and kind. Adults who are generous enough to allow a child to share their home. (I am not saying adoptive parents are not generous and kind). Just adoptees are told they are lucky. But really in a successful adoption all parties are lucky.

It is interesting that the author brought up the similarity to adoptive parents and not to the adopted child - who does have their identity changed (certainly in the past). Research into Links between hiding/denying past identity and future trauma led to changes in adoptions, life story work etc.

Sorry again if I am not explaining myself well, hopefully you get the idea!

Lazy analogy, particularly disappointing from someone paid to think deeply about difficult issues. But I guess that's what happens when you're more interested in promoting an ideology.

My brother is adopted and knowing about his birth parents helped him understand himself and why he is different from his siblings. He has a good relationship with them, which was made possible by the way my parents approached the issue. It was a little awkward during the teenage years (at least from my perspective it seemed that way), but it's comfortable and stress free now.

My parents would have ill-served my brother had they pretended to have been his biological parents, not least because it would have denied a part of his own story that he actually needed to be told for his own wellbeing. Told at a time and in a way that was right for him.

My parents, our parents, are my brother's real parents in that they are the ones who parented him. And yet none of us ever would want his adoptive parents accepted as the same as his biological parents. For reasons I don't want to go into right now, our parents would have been quite upset about that. And rejected the notion outright. And so would my brother.

@OhamIreally

I think that society would agree that there is a similarity in that both are a legal fiction. Adoptive parents understand they are not the biological parents of a child.

This. And whilst an adoption certificate can be used in place of a birth certificate, it does not replace or change a birth certificate, which is really important. I don’t think birth certificates should change with a GRC, the GRC should be able to be used in place of a birth certificate, but the original should not be amended. It is not seen as enough though.

@Authenticcelestialmusic, my take on the quote is that the author is implying that trans women are not regarded as legitimate women in the same way that adoptive parents are not considered ‘real’ parents, which is actually very insulting to adopters.

I am an adoptive parent and I love being one. We often talk about how out family came to be together.
We talk at length about how babies are born and how that happened with a different woman. And we acknowledge that she is also a parent.

If we didn't acknowledge our differences, our DC wouldn't know their birth siblings who we see regularly.

Also, as DH and I both wear glasses, my optician advised we got the children tested when they were quite young for a genetic condition. I wasn't offended or upset. I didn't feel de-parented or not valid when I explained to the optician that we don't have a genetic link. And the optician didn't give a shit either.

I am a parent but I am not a biological parent. And to become a parent was a difficult process, with all kinds of hoops to join and declarations to make.

There was no self identity as a parent, but a rigorous legal process because frankly becoming a parent was fek all to do with us and our rights and feelings, and absolutely everything to do with those of the children, so this analogy not only fails, but it's also a bit insulting actually.

I actually feel adaption demonstrates the issue quite well.

It used to be that adoptive parents would lie to their children. This was advised even by doctors because it was thought children couldn’t come to terms with biological reality or would feel alienated.

It’s now well understood that children should be told the truth, as soon as is reasonable, Adults who were lied to about adoption had massive identity crjses when the whole thing came out. Kids who are told early and have their love and trust with parents affirmed thrive without issue.

Likewise with trans stuff. If you have “two moms” because one of your moms was born Steve instead of Shirley the kids should be told that a) Shirley is Actually male, and like any male person had/has a penis and made the sperm that fused with moms egg. Shirley just prefers that others pretend that Shirley is female And always has, that’s what being trans* means. Or if two Female bio moms that actually a) is your bio mom and B) isn’t but loves you every bit as much. And that the sperm came from (insert here).

Lying to kids is bad! Use correct terminology that anyone can understand.!

This is big on my mind atm because daughter is 7 and is asking allll the sex questions. We’ve even discussed same sex (female) couples and sperm banks! As well as adoption and, for anyone.

For those upset about my use of the term "legal fiction" this is what I mean:
"One example of a legal fiction occurs in adoption. Once an order or judgment of adoption (or similar decree from a court) is entered, one or both biological (or natural) parents becomes a legal stranger to the child, legally no longer related to the child and with no rights related to the child. Conversely, the adoptive parent or parents are legally considered to be parents of the adopted child. A new birth certificate reflecting this is issued, which is a legal fiction.[7]"
I would equate the GRC to this.

I did not imply that the parenting of an adopted child is in some way "fictitious" as it clearly isn't.

@RaveOnThisCrazyFeeling

I don't agree that there's a similarity at all, and to call adoptive parenting a legal fiction is offensive and inaccurate.

• Does 'parent' mean one who produces offspring?
• yes, that's right.
• So in what way is an adoptive parent a 'parent'?
• Well, they have the legal relationship of parent to the child, and they do all the things a parent does.
• Can you describe what that means, "all the things a parent does", without using circular definitions or resorting to stereotypes?
• Sure, it means the child is part of their family and household, they are responsible for their care and well being, food and shelter nurturing, and meeting their physical and emotional needs, making sure their educational needs are met, raising them to adulthood, being grandparent to their children, etc. etc.

• Does 'woman' mean adult human female?
• yes, that's right.
• So in what way is a transwoman a 'woman'?
• Well, if they have a GRC they have the legal designation of 'woman' and they do all the things a woman does.
• Can you describe what that means, "all the things a woman does", without using circular definitions or resorting to stereotypes?
• ... ... ... ...

Brilliant

@OhamIreally

For those upset about my use of the term "legal fiction" this is what I mean: "One example of a legal fiction occurs in adoption. Once an order or judgment of adoption (or similar decree from a court) is entered, one or both biological (or natural) parents becomes a legal stranger to the child, legally no longer related to the child and with no rights related to the child. Conversely, the adoptive parent or parents are legally considered to be parents of the adopted child. A new birth certificate reflecting this is issued, which is a legal fiction.[7]" I would equate the GRC to this.

I did not imply that the parenting of an adopted child is in some way "fictitious" as it clearly isn't.

No, a new birth certificate is NOT issued.

An Adoption Certificate is issued. It clearly says ‘Adoption’ on it.

Not sure what your source is.... but it’s still bollocks.

Agree, it's not a legal fiction, it's a legal status.
We are the legal parents, but no one tried to pretend we are birth parents.
The child ends up with two certificates:

1. A short form birth certificate which states their new name and where and when they were born, but no parents mentioned at all.
2. A longer form certificate with Adoption Certificate writ large at the top. This is the certificate needed to get a passport (and I think for things like DBS/CRB checks).

@TeenPlusTwenties

Agree, it's not a legal fiction, it's a legal status. We are the legal parents, but no one tried to pretend we are birth parents. The child ends up with two certificates: 1) A short form birth certificate which states their new name and where and when they were born, but no parents mentioned at all. 2) A longer form certificate with Adoption Certificate writ large at the top. This is the certificate needed to get a passport (and I think for things like DBS/CRB checks).

You’re completely right, @TeenPlusTwenties ... I forgot about the short cert (never use it!)

I retract (some!) of the strength of my previous statement 😂

@HPFA

It's a nonsensical analogy.

Adoptive parents do not demand that biological parents don't talk about pregnancy, they don't demand that biological parents talk about "acquiring their children" rather than "giving birth" to them.

From reading the adoption board I get the impression adoptive parents get quite annoyed at people who have only parented biologically insisting they are qualified to give useful advice. There doesn't seem any desire at all to pretend the experiences are exactly the same.

Agree with this.

@FWRLurker

I actually feel adaption demonstrates the issue quite well.

It used to be that adoptive parents would lie to their children. This was advised even by doctors because it was thought children couldn’t come to terms with biological reality or would feel alienated.

It’s now well understood that children should be told the truth, as soon as is reasonable, Adults who were lied to about adoption had massive identity crjses when the whole thing came out. Kids who are told early and have their love and trust with parents affirmed thrive without issue.

Likewise with trans stuff. If you have “two moms” because one of your moms was born Steve instead of Shirley the kids should be told that a) Shirley is Actually male, and like any male person had/has a penis and made the sperm that fused with moms egg. Shirley just prefers that others pretend that Shirley is female And always has, that’s what being trans* means. Or if two Female bio moms that actually a) is your bio mom and B) isn’t but loves you every bit as much. And that the sperm came from (insert here).

Lying to kids is bad! Use correct terminology that anyone can understand.!

FWRLurker, are you an adoptive parent, because picking up on the point you make in your third paragraph about ‘kids who are told early and have their love and trust affirmed by parents thrive’ is so far off beam in terms of the realities of modern-day that I can only assume you are not?

I think the central message from the adopters here is that we are sick of yet more ‘othering’ by people who are trying to win a non-related argument based on their ignorant and very limited knowledge of adopters’ genuine experiences of parenting.

I must have been musing in this in my sleep.

The analogy I’ve come up with is lets say a children’s club that is run by parent volunteers is experiencing problems with predatory males trying to get access.
The club owners then state, “only biological parents can volunteer”. Adoptive parents say “hang on we’re not the problem”, so they are let in.
Then the predatory males say, “Well if adoptive parents can identify as parents, then so can we. And we don’t have to go through years of assessment or be placed with a child, we just self-ID and should be let in. Anyone who says we’re not parents is a “SLUR””.
It starts with puff pieces in the liberal press “My journey to becoming a trans-parent”. The males then claim the word “parent” for themselves saying biological parent have to now be known as “CIS-parents”, it escalates to dead rats being pinned to the club’s door, (Vancouver Rape Centre), fake blood being thrown over the club logo (JKR’s handprints), gangs of males forming barricades around the club and banging in windows when the club is in progress along with bomb threats and getting the club defunded. People lose their jobs for saying “trans-parents are not biological parents”.
The adoptive parents speak up and say “not in my name“ but are turned on as “parentscum”.
A famous author writes an article where she says “as a biological parent I want safe spaces for my children and I want to support adoptive parents”. Hell breaks loose.

Actually I might change “predatory” to “fetishist”. Think it still works.

It analogy does miss out loads e.g. punitive blockers and medical treatment for children, but the original analogy compared to adoptive parents not adopted children.

topcat2014 That must be such an incredibly heartbreaking situation. I’m sorry for what you went through.