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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'Like adoptive parents, who want to be accepted as being the same as biological parents'

114 replies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 11/07/2020 13:52

Trans women are like adoptive parents, who want to be accepted as being the same as biological parents. And they are accepted as such, despite the differences in how they became parents in the first place; and if society could do the same for trans women, we’d be in a better place.”

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/jul/11/uks-only-trans-philosophy-professor-to-jk-rowling-harry-potter-helped-me-become-a-woman

I'd be interested in the reaction of adoptive parents or children to that analogy. It doesn't work for me.

OP posts:
poptartsarefood · 12/07/2020 14:11

I think the analogy is flawed. Its more like a step parent deciding that now they're here your new designation is "birth" parent or "natal" parent or whatever add on that takes something from you. Mother (or father, I'm sure it happens both ways) becomes the battleground word and everyone has to have a piece.

PelicanDeuce · 12/07/2020 14:13

Parent, mother, father are all verbs as well as nouns. You parent, mother or father a child in being the adult responsible for the child’s upbringing.

Woman is not a verb. Unless you perform it. We will not be performed by men.

TeenPlusTwenties · 12/07/2020 14:17

FWRlurker Kids who are told early and have their love and trust with parents affirmed thrive without issue.

Would that were so... Sad

Moominmammaatsea · 12/07/2020 14:21

@TeenPlusTwenties, I know! I’m sick of being patronised by ignorant people who think they are now experts on adoption (as well as the trans debate).

KarenKuruma · 12/07/2020 14:40

Oh cool - so DP can just "identify" as the other parent of my DCs, and we can remove XPs legal rights without XP getting any say in it? Fab! That's so much easier than the arduous legal process I was imagining. Yay for transactivists! 🎉

PAND0RA · 12/07/2020 14:49

It used to be that adoptive parents would lie to their children. This was advised even by doctors because it was thought children couldn’t come to terms with biological reality or would feel alienated

This was never true and certainly isn’t now. Parents kept their children’s adoption secret because there was a stigma surrounding illegitimacy and infertility. It was nothing to do with children not coming to terms with biology.

People stopped concealing it as soon as society stoped branding children as bastards and adults as barren. So about half a century ago.

I can assure you that adoptees and adopters are a great deal more aware of biology that most other families.

womanaf · 12/07/2020 23:42

I think it’s a beautiful analogy that proves exactly the opposite of what whoever said it was hoping.

-There’s massive gatekeeping. Rightly so.
-Additional/replacement paperwork is issued. Nothing is changed or inaccurate. (Short form birth cert simply doesn’t name parents, it doesn’t pretend adoptive parents were birth parents).
-Adopted children have to ‘out’ themselves repeatedly throughout their lives (passports, security checks etc)
-Adoptive parents are legally parents. They don’t pretend they are birth parents.
-Adoptive parents don’t tell birth parents that talk of birth or birthdays is adoptive-phobic. They may or may not celebrate additional days (gotcha etc) but they don’t pretend birthdays don’t exist/matter.
-Adoptive parents don’t elbow their way into NCT groups, or declare those groups to be adoptive-phobic.
-There are adoption support groups that are just for adopters. Because their experience of parenting is different to birth parents experience of parenting. That’s fine. No need to pretend we’re all the same.

  • Parents of an adopted child don’t know how it feels to be the birth parents of that child. They only know how they feel as adoptive parents of that child.
Adoptive parents are robust af, not permanently claiming victimhood. Etc.
gluteustothemaximus · 13/07/2020 00:40

WeeBisom that was very good Grin

Didkdt · 13/07/2020 02:34

People dont adopt primarily because they want to be considered a parent in the eyes of others, they adopt because they have something to offer a child. They don't think ooh I want to be recognized as a parent legally so I'll adopt. They can even have given birth to children or may go on to give birth. They adopt because they want a relationship.
They adopt because they have the abilities required to parent a child who has experienced a huge and traumatic loss. They make a commitment emotionally and financially for life.
They give. It's not altruism they want to do it and they want something in return but they are acutely aware that what they get back is oftentimes not what biological parents who are functioning with meeting their birth child's needs get back.
It's a rollercoaster.
But someone was paid to say it's no different than causing fear distress and misogyny on women.
Really it isn't the same at all but it's the Guardian and they aren't famously for recognizing the benefits of adoption.

merrymouse · 13/07/2020 06:18

It doesn’t work as an analogy because a parent has a clearly defined role and responsibility which is the same regardless of how they became a parent. A biological parent can lose legal responsibility for a child if they don’t parent adequately.

However, while you can parent, you can’t ‘woman’.

ChattyLion · 13/07/2020 09:41

I thought the points on this thread would make a good letter to the editor: www.theguardian.com/info/2015/jan/28/contact-the-guardian-letters-desk

This such a superficial analogy coming from a professional philosopher. I looked it up online because I had expected more robust ideas without such obvious shortcomings. Nope, it is just an emotive analogy.

In Sophie-Grace Chappell’s analogy it is only by blurring categories that the claims can make sense: Sophie-Grace says:

‘Nobody sensible thinks that the existence of adoptive parents undermines our understanding of what it is to be a parent. On the contrary, it extends it.’

blog.apaonline.org/2018/07/20/trans-women-men-and-adoptive-parents-an-analogy/

Yes- absolutely in a social sense (has this ever been not the case? Adoption isn’t some new thing, it goes back thousands of years..) But no, if you still want to acknowledge the reality that there are different routes to parenthood. No if you think that the biological reality of how children come into being is important because it creates its own unique set of needs and issues for biological children and their biological or genetic parents. Just No, if you think adoption as the route to parenthood creates unique needs and issues for adopted children and their adoptive parents.

Isn’t this because adoption is not proposed as the experimental, unproved remedy to a deep personal emotional conflict of the individual, nor as the remedy to an individual’s wish to be read by others as the opposite parenting status and thereby changing their outward appearances, or a remedy to wanting to be read as a person of no parenting status, or someone outside of all parenting status, or someone of a new parenting status completely?

I would counter that there isn’t a broad umbrella of adopters with a spectrum of motivations whose motivations should validly entitle them all to be adopters. No, that would be anti-safeguarding at worst and at best could not take account of the individual needs and history of the adopted child: (www.stonewall.org.uk/what-does-trans-mean)

Whereas S-G C says (in the same blog linked to above) ‘... the general moral rule underlying everything I say here: [is] that people’s life-choices about how they want to be gendered are (like the life-choice to adopt) a deep and serious matter for them and so must be respected.’

I don’t think many people would agree that the wish to adopt ‘must be respected’ just because it was decided in a deep and serious way. Or that it should be be respected simply because it comes from adult choices whether it was chosen deeply or trivially, ill informed or well-informed, immaturely with no idea of the consequences, or well thought through and based on other’s experiences.

The diverging point from an issue of personal gender identity, is that adoption isn’t just about what the adult wants. It’s also about the specific child and her or his specific needs and background and doing the best for that child within the available options.

Adoption is for people who want a relationship with a child and who have been thoroughly investigated by third parties as to how they propose to do that, including with interviews with the people around them and visits their home. Adopters have to go to classes to prepare them. Things that can and do go wrong are kept front and centre of the discussion as well as the great bits. There isn’t an unrealistic brave and stunning gloss put on it. Potential adopters or actual adopters aren't shut down, castigated and their reputations besmirched if they ask questions about what could, or does go wrong. If the adopter is found unsuitable by third parties then the adoption doesn’t happen. All that is obviously hard, but an important part of prioritising the child in the process, which has to be more important than paying ‘respect’ to adult wishes by automatically granting them.

The fact of adoption does not in any way infringe on the fact of biological parenting.
Adopters are not critical of and never threaten biological parents because they speak about their experiences which could cause hurt feelings to some adopters nor do adopters accuse them of ‘excluding‘ them, simply for going through the facts of pregnancy and birth and wanting to talk about it with others who share the experience or example wanting to make fertility or maternity or post natal services better.

Adoptive parents acknowledge the differences and create their own spaces to talk together as adopters about their own experiences of being parents and becoming parents, where these do not already exist. They don’t try to enter and take up the services and places where birth parents are vulnerable together, like postnatal wards, antenatal or breastfeeding classes, or where attention is focused on a mother’s own physical needs, like birthing suites or c section operating theatres.

Adopters don’t lie to their child by saying that they gave birth to that child themselves or claim that they had legal responsibility for their child prior to the adoption, adopters do the important work of painstakingly acknowledging biological truth and the often difficult relationships and realities and significance of the adoption.

They do all this for the benefit of the child’s understanding and healthy emotional development. (As well as talking about the loving relationships that the child has in their lives).

Adopters often acknowledge this difficulty in campaignIng for better professional psychological support for their children, to help them in processing traumatic loss, even while they and their children know they have been loving and caring for them, perhaps for years by this point.

Adoption is the most child-centred thing I can think of. There may be great adult rewards. Hope I am not overstepping saying all this, I am not an adoptive parent nor an adoptee, I just know some.

There’s a response by Holly Lawford-Smith to Chappell’s analogy here: medium.com/@aytchellis/the-adoption-analogy-revisited-ec0e0b28581
Haven’t had time to read it yet but will be interested to do that later.

SirVixofVixHall · 13/07/2020 09:58

A nonsense comparison. Parenting has a certain structure to it, there are things that all parents whether adoptive or not, need to do to provide for the welfare of a child. It is a caring job, basically. Part of our lives but not our entire selves.
Of course there is a difference between the origins of a birth child and an adoptive one, but there is no difference in the parental role .

Womanhood is not a role. There is no day to day way of being a woman that unites all women, other than actually being women. Being female is not a choice we can opt out of, like parenting. It is not something we can do well, or badly. It is not something that we might want, but never have. It is the essence of us. Parenting might be something we do, but being women is what we are.

SirVixofVixHall · 13/07/2020 10:02

I agree with Chattylion
I wouldn’t have bothered posting my pre-coffee little post if I had read her very clear and articulate one first !

ChattyLion · 13/07/2020 10:28

Womanhood is not a role. There is no day to day way of being a woman that unites all women, other than actually being women. Being female is not a choice we can opt out of, like parenting. It is not something we can do well, or badly. It is not something that we might want, but never have. It is the essence of us. Parenting might be something we do, but being women is what we are.

I agree with Vix who has absolutely said it all in a beautiful eloquent nutshell. Flowers

NotTerfNorCis · 13/07/2020 10:44

What others have said. Parent is a social role, a function and a relationship as well as biological reality. It can be one of those things without the others. E.g. a biological parent might not act as a parent, while someone not related to the child might act as a parent. 'Woman' isn't a role though. It's a biological reality.

Clymene · 13/07/2020 11:08

I am not remotely interested in Sophie-Grace Chappell telling women about how our biological reality is a concept.

I do note however that Chappell's wife, who has remained in the marriage, is a deeply devout woman. It's interesting how often religion and being a 'supportive wife' of a late transitioner goes hand in hand.

FedUpAtHomeTroels · 13/07/2020 11:17

Its a rubbish comaprison.
I'm both an adoptive and a biological parent. I know I'm not my Dd's bio parent, I'm not trying to pretend I am. I am however her legal parent and will be as firece and protective with her as I was for my bio sons.
I'm not trying to pretend to be anything I'm not, I'm not taking away anything from a parent who is a bio parent.

ChattyLion · 13/07/2020 12:16

The response by Holly Lawford-Smith, an Australian academic, to Chappell’s analogy is a good read on this: medium.com/@aytchellis/the-adoption-analogy-revisited-ec0e0b28581

Spoiler alert for anyone short of time: In conclusion, the adoption analogy seems to break down at virtually every point

LastTrainEast · 13/07/2020 12:32

WeeBisom covered it perfectly.

Clymene · 13/07/2020 12:45

I didn't realise that this has been Chappell's argument for some time.

Sorry, it really isn't the gotcha that you think. I would have expected an Oxford-educated professor to have come up with a more more robust theory

BatShite · 13/07/2020 12:50

Thre really is no group of people, no situation, that transactivists will not twist beyond all recognition to try and ocnvince the world that blacvk is white.

One of my best mates has an adopted son. She gets SO mad when this one gets brought up. So mad infact that I have never really found out her whole opinion on it because..I don't want to upset her anymore than she already is whenever some idiot tries this angle.

TrexDrip · 13/07/2020 13:14

I am offended by the analogy. As an adoptive parent we discuss the kids birth parents on a regular basis and given their ages as matter of fact and naturally as possible.
Their birth parents never did any 'parenting'. In fact they made poor decisions with regards to drink and drugs which resulting in domestic violence (from both of them) and caused long term physical damage to both children who had to be taken away from them at birth.
I feel pity and empathy for both of them as its a result of their own upbringings but the analogy sounds as if adoptive parents are less than biological ones. In most cases this is not the case.

FWRLurker · 13/07/2020 13:40

I’m not and adoptive parent. I Certainly never meant to hurt feelings Of adoptive parents, for that I am sorry. I’m a little confused because it think we’re on the same “side” of this debate. The original claim is that trans ID is like being an adoptive parent because “both want to be seen as legitimate”. That part is clearly nonsense. But if that person thought about it for two second, they’d realize their analogy works against them, because the trans person, but NOT the adoptive parents, wants to be lie about reality. The transwoman (transman) wants everyone to pretend they are literally female (male) and to tell the truth is hurtful. The Adoptive parents on the other hand know that lying to their children About their biological reality harms the child, and others to do so Is harmful.

I just that trans people need to embrace reality. Just like adoptive parents do every single day.

kids who are told early and have their love and trust affirmed by parents thrive’ is so far off beam in terms of the realities of modern-day that I can only assume you are not?

I’m from the US so perhaps that’s why. Someone earlier mentioned that UK and US are different in terms of adoption. In the US a “typical” adoption is One in which a baby is handed over Immediately after birth, the arrangement already decided before birth. And until the last few decades, doctors and adoption agencies advised parents It was best for the child to pretend they are the bio parents until they are adults, and that’s still the culture in some places. This has seriously messed people up.

Nowadays in the US typical adoption case the best practice is not to lie to your adopted child, and I think that is obviously an improvement.

Likewise, I also think it is good for trans people to be honest about their sex, for their own mental health and that of those around them. But you won’t see a trans activist agree with that.

PAND0RA · 13/07/2020 13:46

@FWRLurker

That’s nothing like adoption in the UK. That’s why people are disagreeing with you. It’s not about being “ on the same side “ , its that what you said about adoption isn’t relevant in the UK, where most MN posters are from.

If people are taking about a different country they usually say so upfront, to avoid confusion.