MP response. In shock.

[Wolfgirrl]

Response from my MP when I emailed to object to self ID contained the sentence:

I don’t think thattranspeople should be denied rights because a minority of people will seek to exploit a new process.

So, there you have it. Men seeking to exploit self ID to attack or sexually assault women is a price worth paying to let other members of the male sex use our facilities.

I just want to cry.

Any suggestions for response will be gratefully received, but for now I am going to pour a glass of wine.

The Stonewall line is that people should use the space in which they feel comfortable.

Gendered presentation isn’t really a factor.

@PronounssheRa

Also I'm not convinced the GRC process mitigates the risk to women. Criminal convictions don't prevent a GRC being issued

Yy, good point. The 'gatekeeping' process has nothing to do with women's safety.

What gets me I dont even see why we have to come up with a list of reasons why we don't want to share our spaces or acknowledge men as women. We should just be able to say no, and that be enough.

@bendmeoverbackwards

Thank you *@OldCrone* so the potential risk to cis-women is from transwomen who have not got a GRC and may 'simply' be a cross-dresser?

Please don’t use the nonsense term ‘cis’. Women are not a sub set of their own sex and that term is offensive to many women.

Please don’t use the nonsense term ‘cis’. Women are not a sub set of their own sex and that term is offensive to many women

Apologies, I didn't know it was an offensive term. So are you saying there is no distinction between women born female and those who change gender?

@Packingsoapandwater
Brilliant post. Thank you.

I know the number of transwomen isn't properly recorded, but I would be willing to bet there are more religiously conservative women than there are transwomen.

It's a side issue, but I would imagine that religiously conservative men wouldn't be too happy about sharing with transmen either. One minority group is very much being prioritised over another. In some areas that is an awful lot of votes Labour are risking.

The information another poster gave about cross dressing being the most common fetish amongst predatory males was arresting.

What I can not get past is that there are far more men who are a danger to women or who mean to ill use women than there are trans women. Statistically, I'm more likely to encounter the former, and it's a risk I don't want to take.

Sorry, I also mentioned to say well done OP, both for your fantastic letters and not giving up.

What I can not get past is that there are far more men who are a danger to women or who mean to ill use women than there are trans women. Statistically, I'm more likely to encounter the former, and it's a risk I don't want to take.

It's unbelievable how few people grasp that. Same with 'cotton ceiling' and males who claim to identify as lesbians.

Thank you Packingsoapandwater. I'm entering round two with my woke female MP. I shall rely heavily on your points if I ever get a reply. I somehow don't think I will,as I've asked which women's and children's advocates and safeguarding groups she's met with.
As well as religious and Bame women who are unable to share mixed spaces, don't forget traveller women. Culturally it's a big no no and one of the reasons that many traveller girls are pulled out of education at 13/14 years old. If they have to share mixed toilets and changing rooms,the numbers staying in school will plummet.

@ThePurported the whole cotton ceiling ideology really knocks me sick. The idea that anyone should have to justify not wanting to be intimate with someone, whatever the reason, is disgusting enough.
It's one person trying to bully and coerce another into sex. How are we living in a society where someone verbalising that intent out loud is in anyway acceptable, nevermind considered by their allies to be justified and reasonable? And the person saying No is considered to be in the wrong? It's just terrifying.

You could try pinning her down to a specific on safeguarding. "Very well. You bring in self-ID. A 13 year girl is in the swimming pool changing rooms. She encounters a person with male biology, naked. Prior to self ID, this would obviously be a serious sexual harassment incident requring police intervention. But post self-ID the situation is far less clear cut Please advise on how this child and pool staff will be able to successfully distinguish between 1) a naked transgender woman with every right to be there and 2) a man claiming to be a transwoman but in fact committing a serious sexual offence."

I made this point in my response the government consultation. Where do draw the line between getting changed and indecent exposure if fully intact males are allowed in female changing rooms? I asked how they would police and prosecute exhibitionism and voyeurism. It’s so stupid it beggars belief. If this goes through, its a flasher’s wonderland.

@bendmeoverbackwards

Please don’t use the nonsense term ‘cis’. Women are not a sub set of their own sex and that term is offensive to many women

Apologies, I didn't know it was an offensive term. So are you saying there is no distinction between women born female and those who change gender?

You've said you're new here so it's probably worth spelling this out for you and anyone else who's confused about this.

People can't change sex. Transwomen are transwomen. They were born male, they will always be male.

A woman is an adult female human. People can't change sex, so someone born male can never be a woman.

So there are women and transwomen. Since transwomen are not women, there is no confusion about who we are talking about and no need for the prefix 'cis' which many of us find offensive, and is also banned on this part of mumsnet (not sure about the rest of the site). So you can simply talk about 'women and transwomen', and the meaning is perfectly clear.

What you can and cannot say on this part of the site is here:
www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderation-policy

@bendmeoverbackwards

Please don’t use the nonsense term ‘cis’. Women are not a sub set of their own sex and that term is offensive to many women

Apologies, I didn't know it was an offensive term. So are you saying there is no distinction between women born female and those who change gender?

OldCrone has explained it extremely well. Women who change gender are still of the female sex.

Thank you @OldCrone and apologies if I've said the wrong thing.

Can I ask something - if 'transwomen' are not women, is that not trans-phobic? My teen dd would probably say it is.

So are you saying there is no distinction between women born female and those who change gender?

Yes. Absolutely.

Changing gender does not make a TW a woman like a mother and not a man like my father.

You can’t change sex.

To be a woman you can only be born female.

I am a woman, not due to a feeling, personality or a desire to wear lipstick.

I am a woman because I am an adult human female.

@bendmeoverbackwards

Thank you *@OldCrone* and apologies if I've said the wrong thing.

Can I ask something - if 'transwomen' are not women, is that not trans-phobic? My teen dd would probably say it is.

What’s your definition of transphobic?

Where do draw the line between getting changed and indecent exposure if fully intact males are allowed in female changing rooms?

I think its important to point out that inclusive policies don't usually say that a toilet is for men or women (including trans men or women). The Old Vic Theatre policy is "please choose the loo which feels most appropriate for you".

The concept of 'pretending to be trans' isn't relevant.

Effectively all services become unisex.

@bendmeoverbackwards I think you have to ask yourself what you think. Do you think transwomen are women? Truly and absolutely, without difference from those born female infants and who have grown up to become women? Because that is what those insisting transwomen are women want to be believed and accepted.

@bendmeoverbackwards it's also worth saying that not all transwomen consider themselves to be women, or support any argument that says they are.

www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-question/Lords/2020-03-05/HL2276/

Gender: Written question - HL2276
Asked by Lord Lucas
Asked on: 05 March 2020
Women and EqualitiesGenderHL2276

To ask Her Majesty's Government what is their definition of (1) man, (2) woman, (3) male, (4) female, (5) boy, (6) girl, (7) transgender, (8) sex, (9) gender, and (10) gender identity.

Answered by: Baroness Berridge
Answered on: 23 March 2020

In the Equality Act 2010, "man" is defined as "a male of any age"; and "woman" as "a female of any age". The other terms listed in the question are not defined, except that "the protected characteristic of sex" is defined in Section 11 of the Equality Act as a reference to a man or a woman, or to persons of the same sex, as appropriate.

The Government Equalities Office provided a list of terms to help set the context and support respondents in completing the 2018 Gender Recognition Act Consultation. This included short descriptions of the terms ‘sex’, ‘gender’, ‘transgender’ and ‘gender identity’: assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/721725/GRA-Consultation-document.pdf

*So are you saying there is no distinction between women born female and those who change gender?

Yes. Absolutely.*

I clearly mean ‘No, not at all’ . There is every difference.

Long day!

@bendmeoverbackwards
Have a look at this thread.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?

You'll find a lot of your questions are answered on there, and there are lots of other links as well. If you have any more questions you can post them on there or start a new thread, so that we can get back to discussing the OP's correspondence with her MP on this one.

[quote OldCrone]@bendmeoverbackwards
Have a look at this thread.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?

You'll find a lot of your questions are answered on there, and there are lots of other links as well. If you have any more questions you can post them on there or start a new thread, so that we can get back to discussing the OP's correspondence with her MP on this one.[/quote]
Indeed.

I don’t even believe that this is a conflict of rights between two vulnerable groups. In what way are trans males vulnerable? Less likely to be killed than any other group . How is that vulnerable? I think we are fed the “vulnerable “ line because we are supposed to not see them as males. They are absolutely not vulnerable to attack and sexual abuse on anything like the level of women and girls.
My five foot, five stone , thirteen year old daughter in a loo with someone like Karen White for instance. Is Karen equally vulnerable ?

What gets me I dont even see why we have to come up with a list of reasons why we don't want to share our spaces or acknowledge men as women. We should just be able to say no, and that be enough

This sums it up for me.