MP response. In shock.

[Wolfgirrl]

Response from my MP when I emailed to object to self ID contained the sentence:

I don’t think thattranspeople should be denied rights because a minority of people will seek to exploit a new process.

So, there you have it. Men seeking to exploit self ID to attack or sexually assault women is a price worth paying to let other members of the male sex use our facilities.

I just want to cry.

Any suggestions for response will be gratefully received, but for now I am going to pour a glass of wine.

I would also ask her to explain what comparator she thinks would be relevant if a woman makes a claim against her employer for indirect discrimination on the basis of sex, but the protected characteristic of sex no longer has any objective meaning in legislation.

Is it true that 80% of transwomen have not had any surgery or have no intention of doing so? Why is that?

Surgery can only imitate a penis or a vagina and there will always be a sacrifice in terms of function.

Ask her if she thinks her constituents voted her into power to take away rights from 50% of them. And if she thinks there is no longer a requirement for MPs to represent their constituents in parliament? What does she think she was voted in for?

Woah, Packingsoapandwater ! 👏 (sounds like me fighting with our suppliers...)

Is it true that 80% of transwomen have not had any surgery or have no intention of doing so? Why is that?

The actual number can only be estimated as we do not have an official register for those with a trans status. However, we do have the following:

• the number of genital surgeries carried out through the NHS. This has hovered around 100 to 150 per year for many years. Compare that number to the total estimate of the UK's trans community.

• an estimate from GIRES a trans rights organisation, contained in their submission to the Transgender Equality Inquiry by the House of Commons Women's and Equality Committee.

In their submission GIRES estimated based on various kinds of data, that by 2020 a total of 20% of the UK's trans-identifying people will have approached the health service for support.

Support starts with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, then counselling, then medication to suppress one's own hormones and prescription of cross-sex hormones. For males, there is a range of surgical interventions called feminisation surgeries. These include shaving the Adam's apple, silicone implants to construct fake breasts and facial feminisation surgery.

Very few males proceed to genital surgery, which starts with the removal of the testes, then the removal of the penis and as a third step, the surgical construction of a so-called neo-vagina, an artificially constructed opening to simulate a vagina (with of course a blind opening as males have no womb for the vagina to connect to) which sometimes involves the inversion of the penis and other times involves creating the pouch by implanting skin from the intestines or stomach. The removal of the testes often alleviates the suffering caused by gender dysphoria enough that the patient can stop there. Unfortunately for some patients this isn't enough or the symptoms return, so they do feel forced to proceed to that last step. But that number is very small.

So we can state with confidence that the percentage of males who identify as trans and who have not sought any medical help at all and who cannot therefore have had medical surgery to alleviate gender dysphoria is at a minimum 80%.

• various papers written by those who treat patients with gender dysphoria about the kinds of interventions they do and how many of their patients require which treatment. I read one such paper which analysed patient data over a longer time frame, including the modern shift from only transsexuals being considered trans to the umbrella encompassing all who are gender-non-conforming. This paper found that the percentage of patients who did seek help for gender dysphoria and who do so by accessing hormonal treatment is going down, as is the percentage who have their testes removed. That latter group made up 1% of all patients seeking help for gender dysphoria. And obviously a smaller percentage then take that final step, but the paper did not give any numbers.

• data from the US which suggests that only 5% of those who claim a trans identity change their name. A social transition is obviously the first step on the road to recovery for those who suffer from gender dysphoria, so if only 5% of the entire community take that step, which is after all not requiring any alteration to the body, then the percentage who have surgery cannot be higher than that 5%.

As for the reason why. The trans umbrella now includes all those who are gender-non-conforming. Most importantly it now includes crossdressers. We know from research that transvestism in women is rare, but in adult men estimates range from 2 to over 6%. It is also the most common paraphilia (that is sexual fetish) found in predatory males.

This does not mean that every male who crossdresses is a predatory male or a violent offender. It also does not mean every paedophile, rapist or murderer crossdresses. It means that when you examine which sexual fetishes predatory males are found to have, crossdressing is the most common.

Crossdressers do not seek to make changes to their body as they do not have gender dysphoria (that is they do not reject their body). And with crossdressing being so common, and now included under the trans umbrella, that's why at a minimum 80% do not have surgery.

As a Labour member, this is so, so depressing

@Packingsoapandwater

I am heavily involved in local governance. My advice with this is to be brutal and clinical.

It is only when you put their arse on the line that they stop bullshitting, and that inevitably involves financial liability of some sort. At the moment, there are no real world consequences for holding a position that ideologically opposes single-sex spaces -- so you have to nail it to the door.

Ask your MP if she will personally accept liability (political, financial, and legal) for any criminal offence that occurred due to the eradication of single-sex spaces in favour of mixed sex spaces in the climate created by the self-id legislation she supports.

Ask her if she will step down if such an incident occurs. If not, why not?

Ask her if she would be willing to publicly defend mixed-sex spaces in the aftermath of such an incident, remembering that the single-sex spaces that would be affected also extend to hospital wards, psychiatric wards, prisons, certain healthcare clinics (particularly sexual health), homeless and migrant refuges, and sleeping quarters in residential children's homes and elderly care homes.

Ask her if she would be prepared to print her opposition to single-sex facilities, particularly hospital wards, on her re-election campaign literature.

Ask her if she accepts her support of self-id legislation could be perceived as an attack on the rights of religiously conservative women, particularly BAME women. And if not, why not? Does she think that such women deserve to be informed that this is her position before the next general election?

Again, ask her if she thinks that her opposition to single-sex spaces could be construed as a form of institutional racism against women and children of Islamic, Hindu and Jewish heritage.

Ask if she accepts your letter as evidence that she had been made aware of the potential safeguarding issues inherent in self-id legislation.

Don't be wordy. Fire these points like bullets. In fact, put them in bullet points.

Bloody brilliant! That is an excellent way of framing this. Hardhitting and factual. I'm going to repurpose this for our arguments with education bodies about mixed-sex facilities at schools.

Is it true that 80% of transwomen have not had any surgery or have no intention of doing so? Why is that?

One reason is that the 'trans umbrella' is now so broad that it covers part-time crossdressers as well as the transsexuals who are what most people think of when they hear of 'transwomen'.

Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, cross dresser, non-binary, gender queer.

www.stonewall.org.uk/what-does-trans-mean

So the term 'transwomen' includes people like Philip Bunce, who sometimes calls himself 'Pippa' and wears a dress to work. This made him eligible to win a 'women in business' award.

Can I just give three cheers to Packingsoapandwater for that fantastic post. I wish we had a like button sometimes.

Excellent post Packingsoapandwater.
My MP Kate Green thinks there's no problem with TW in sports as women should just try harder.

My MP Kate Green thinks there's no problem with TW in sports as women should just try harder.

Isn’t she the shadow education secretary??!!!

What about safe, equitable and fair sport for girls and boys at secondary school?

How can the world have so many utter idiots?

OldCrone I was going to make a comment about your very last paragraph but realised I would be deleted/banned forever 😂

Yes ThinEndofthewedge she is. She had barely been on TV until last week. Now she's on daily.
It's bloody depressing.

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that it's depressing that she's on TV, but it's depressing that she doesn't give a damn about women and girls.

I wonder if men get better responses from their MPs ?

@Packingsoapandwater

I am heavily involved in local governance. My advice with this is to be brutal and clinical.

It is only when you put their arse on the line that they stop bullshitting, and that inevitably involves financial liability of some sort. At the moment, there are no real world consequences for holding a position that ideologically opposes single-sex spaces -- so you have to nail it to the door.

Ask your MP if she will personally accept liability (political, financial, and legal) for any criminal offence that occurred due to the eradication of single-sex spaces in favour of mixed sex spaces in the climate created by the self-id legislation she supports.

Ask her if she will step down if such an incident occurs. If not, why not?

Ask her if she would be willing to publicly defend mixed-sex spaces in the aftermath of such an incident, remembering that the single-sex spaces that would be affected also extend to hospital wards, psychiatric wards, prisons, certain healthcare clinics (particularly sexual health), homeless and migrant refuges, and sleeping quarters in residential children's homes and elderly care homes.

Ask her if she would be prepared to print her opposition to single-sex facilities, particularly hospital wards, on her re-election campaign literature.

Ask her if she accepts her support of self-id legislation could be perceived as an attack on the rights of religiously conservative women, particularly BAME women. And if not, why not? Does she think that such women deserve to be informed that this is her position before the next general election?

Again, ask her if she thinks that her opposition to single-sex spaces could be construed as a form of institutional racism against women and children of Islamic, Hindu and Jewish heritage.

Ask if she accepts your letter as evidence that she had been made aware of the potential safeguarding issues inherent in self-id legislation.

Don't be wordy. Fire these points like bullets. In fact, put them in bullet points.

Fantastic stuff - we should all do this.

Thank you @CharlieParley for the explanation.

So the term 'transwomen' includes people like Philip Bunce, who sometimes calls himself 'Pippa' and wears a dress to work. This made him eligible to win a 'women in business' award

This is truly shocking. So in a nutshell anyone can call themselves a woman?

What about transwomen who have had gender surgery? Are they entitled to use women's spaces?

Not trying to be goody at all, just trying to get a better understanding of the issues. I have teen dds who seem to be very much on the trans 'side'. I imagine this sort of discussion would make them call trans-phobic.

What about transwomen who have had gender surgery? Are they entitled to use women's spaces?

Surgery is irrelevant here. It will depend on whether or not they have a Gender Recognition certificate, making them legally the opposite sex (surgery is not required for this, but a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria is).

In most cases, according to the Equality Act, people should be treated as their legally recognised sex, but there are still some exemptions for people born as one sex who have legally become the opposite sex by acquiring a GRC.

What about transwomen who have had gender surgery? Are they entitled to use women's spaces?

It's up to the service provider, but no one checks their surgery status (that would be weird!) so in practice all males are then allowed entry if they utter the magic words. Some have a GRC, but that doesn't mean they've had surgery.

Thank you @OldCrone so the potential risk to cis-women is from transwomen who have not got a GRC and may 'simply' be a cross-dresser?

What about transwomen who have had gender surgery? Are they entitled to use women's spaces?

Somebody can get a gender recognition certificate without having had surgery, and legally they must be treated as their acquired sex.

However, even then it is possible to restrict a service on the basis of birth sex in some cases (e.g sport)

The problem is that there is a lot of argument about how these rules should be applied.

You should also be aware that there is no requirement for any service to be single sex - there is just a right to provide single sex services in some situations.

Just to add to crones post, surgery can relate to breast implants, facial feminization surgery etc, it's not necessarily genital surgery. The GRC process has no requirement for any surgery to have taken place or be planned for in future for a GRC to be granted.

Also I'm not convinced the GRC process mitigates the risk to women.
Criminal convictions don't prevent a GRC being issued

so the potential risk to cis-women is from transwomen who have not got a GRC and may 'simply' be a cross-dresser?

It’s not even a case of being a cross dresser. How somebody ‘presents’ is not necessarily an indication of their gender, which is a completely subjective quality.

The problem isn’t just single sex spaces, it’s all recognition that there is a class of female people who require specific services and suffer any kind of discrimination on the basis of sex.