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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

MP response. In shock.

199 replies

Wolfgirrl · 10/07/2020 19:01

Response from my MP when I emailed to object to self ID contained the sentence:

I don’t think thattranspeople should be denied rights because a minority of people will seek to exploit a new process.

So, there you have it. Men seeking to exploit self ID to attack or sexually assault women is a price worth paying to let other members of the male sex use our facilities.

I just want to cry.

Any suggestions for response will be gratefully received, but for now I am going to pour a glass of wine.

OP posts:
Porridgeoat · 12/07/2020 18:32

I wrote a lot to my labour Mp who was clearly towing the party line. In the end I told him I wouldn’t vote labour until labour was able to safeguard women properly

CharlieParley · 12/07/2020 20:12

Indeed, under the Equality Act, trans people have the right to access single-sex services in line with their ‘acquired gender’, and they are not required to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate, or have undergone any form of medical intervention, to be eligible for support in these services. However, under the Act, it is lawful for single-sex services to provide a different service or refuse their service to someone who is undergoing, has undergone or is proposing to undergo ‘gender reassignment’, in circumstances where they can demonstrate that doing so constitutes a ‘proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim’.

Your MP (or rather the Labour Party) misrepresents the law here. This is what I wrote on the other thread in response to this claim:

The Equalities and Human Rights Commission (EHRC), which is tasked with ensuring that the Equality Act 2010 (EqA) is upheld and does so by providing statutory (that is legally binding) guidance about the EqA, had to correct its own guidance in 2018 and has now made unequivocally clear that those with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment but not in possession of a GRC have no legal right to access single-sex provisions provided for the opposite sex to their own.

None.

They don't get a look in, they don't have to be given any explanation or justification - where men are generally denied access, men claiming womanhood who remain legally male are denied access, too.

That is precisely why handing out GRCs on a self-ID basis is so damaging to our sex-based rights. Because when a male becomes legally female through a GRC, denying that person access to female-only provisions is far less easy. It's not impossible, but in practice very difficult to do. That's because of the way the Gender Recognition Act interacts with and impacts on the sex-based exemptions stipulated in the EqA

CharlieParley · 12/07/2020 20:16

Here is the statement on sex and gender reassignment that the EHRC issued in July 2018.

It makes clear that the sex discrimination exceptions in the Equality Act [...] apply differently to a trans person with a GRC or without a GRC.

(Which is of course the opposite of what your MP has claimed.)

The EHRC only put out this statement after women's rights groups* told them their guidance was in conflict with the law they exist to uphold, and they subsequently changed some, but not all, of their erroneous guidance on the Equality Act's sex-based exemptions. Without making that public btw. Just quietly deleted the wrong stuff and replaced it with correct guidance.

This passed most of those by who advocate for transgender ideology and legislation, as the previous misrepresentation of the law was widely disseminated while the correction was not. For obvious reasons.

Hence they keep on telling people what they believe to be true - that trans-identifying people had legal access rights regardless of their legal sex - and so are typically very surprised when you tell them the facts of the matter.

(*I seem to remember that was mostly due to Fair Play for Women, but I might be wrong.)

Wolfgirrl · 14/07/2020 14:57

Kerry McCarthy, Labour.

Sorry, I'm knee deep in a scathing response as I type this.

OP posts:
Wolfgirrl · 14/07/2020 14:58

Taking on all your excellent suggestions

OP posts:
Goosefoot · 14/07/2020 15:03

My feeling is this kind of thing comes out of the fact that there are always abusers of every system. If an idea was otherwise good, we all know that administrative processes and such aren't perfect. We try and minimise abuses, but as long as there are abusers, some will seek to take advantage of any possible entry point.

The problem with this issue is more the poor thinking around it. People like this MP don't really have a clear idea why single sex facilities exist in the first place. And they really don't know what they mean when they say the rights of transpeople.

To put it another way - if it really was a right to use whatever toilet you think you ought, than we would have to find a way to try and make that work, but sometimes there could be problems. The real issue is that it isn't a right.

Wolfgirrl · 23/07/2020 13:43

Reply sent today:

Dear Kerry

Thank you very much for your reply to my email concerning potential reform to the Gender Identity Act.

I’m incredibly disappointed with your response, not so much due to your stance in supporting self ID, but in that I wrote to you with my concerns regarding the impact of GRA reform on women’s rights and received a reply that was completely focussed on trans rights. It neglected to mention women almost entirely, apart from where you assert that they their voices should be heard but only where they do not offend the trans community.

The part of your letter that caused me not just disappointment but deep concern was:

‘I think there are many means for abusive men to access vulnerable women and children, and I don’t think that trans people should be denied rights because a minority of people will seek to exploit a new process.’

  1. Can I ask what, in your view, puts the needs of the trans community above the safety of children? I thought our society accepted the safety of children as paramount and beyond the needs of adults from any demographic. This part really reads like you view potential attacks on women and children as necessary collateral damage to ensure natal males feel affirmed and validated. What number of attacks would be ‘acceptable’?
  1. Does your view that rights should not be lost due to abuse of the process by a few extend to other safeguarding practices? For example, do you think we should permit people to board commercial flights without security searches, which are not only inconvenient but seen as an invasion of privacy and degrading by some? After all, only a very tiny minority of people will seek to exploit this. By extension of your logic, we should abandon all safeguarding practices.

Another part which I found concerning was:

‘We do of course need to listen to people’s genuine concerns about safe spaces… these concerns can, and should, be addressed in a sensitive way without discriminating against trans people.’

  1. Firstly, I hope the wording did not imply that you do not consider all concerns to be ‘genuine concerns’? I really hope this does not mean you see concerns raised by women as transphobic straw men, designed to pursue exclusionary feminism based on unfounded beliefs that transwomen are inherently predatory. This is how women’s concerns are portrayed in the media as we know very well from recent examples.
  1. Once again, it very much reads that women are entitled to their concerns but only where these concerns are not objected to by trans people. I must ask again why the feelings of natal males are more inherently valuable than, for example, those of a woman who has been sexually assaulted and is uncomfortable with sharing a hospital ward with any male? Would you expect victims of Karen White to share a rape crisis centre with transwomen without complaint?

Your letter seems to hinge on transwomen being in such danger in UK society that it is worth eroding the rights of women and children in order to ensure their safety. Which, if true, I would be able to understand, if not accept. However this is simply not supported by any reliable facts; trans people are statistically less likely to be murdered than ‘cis’ men or ‘cis’ women according to a Transrespect study which collated data from 2017-2018. In this time, 1 trans person was sadly murdered in the UK. By comparison, 149 women were murdered. Adjusting for the fact trans people make up a tiny proportion of the population compared to women, ‘cis’ women are still twice as likely to be murdered.

For other violent crime, it is simply impossible to make any kind of fair comparison as misogyny is not treated as a hate crime like transphobia is. I assume this is in part because of the sheer volume of incidences that would be treated as misogyny. Again, it seems that the safety and rights of women are dismissed because they are too difficult to enforce.

Just to make it clear, I am not suggesting self ID will lead to any significant increase in the number of women attacked directly due to transwomen accessing womens’ spaces. However, self ID cannot be implemented in a way which distinguishes between genuine trans people and people that may be claiming to be trans for nefarious reasons. It would be a gateway for any male to enter female changing rooms, toilets and hospital wards. Even if there are very very few incidences, women still deserve comfort, dignity and peace of mind that protected spaces afford them; the bar of feminism is very low if it is reduced to, ‘You very probably will not be assaulted.’ There is also the possibility of voyeurism alongside direct physical or sexual crime; how can this be monitored if the presence of a natal male in a changing room causes no suspicion?

Finally, there are the social implications of making transwomen synonymous with women in law and in society. The beliefs of the majority of the trans community are no longer that a person should simply be free to present how they wish; but that upon doing so, you BECOME your acquired sex. And not only this; others should be COMPELLED to say you are. Women have been investigated by the police for ‘misgendering’ people; despite no resulting convictions, this is frankly Orwellian. No modern society should compel a person to state an untruth in order to preserve the feelings of others if that truth is anchored in scientific fact.

By making transwomen synonymous with women, and the inference that women have a unique biology ‘transphobic’, and allowing them to access women’s hard-won rights, we are denying those rights were needed due to our biological vulnerability. We are denying misogynism takes place due to our female anatomy, and instead replacing it with a vague notion of women are discriminated against based on our ‘identity’, which is clearly untrue as oppressed women across the world are unable to ‘identify’ out of their situation. It reduces being a woman to just an idea in somebody’s head. By allowing transwomen to appropriate all-female positions within your party,you are dismissing why they were needed in the first place to affirm natal males.This is not to say trans people should not benefit from affirmative action in the way women do to ensure they are proportionately represented; but letting transwomen apply for women-only positions does not actually achieve this. All it does is degrade the reasons why these positions were needed in the first place.

In summary I simply do not agree with your letter that the needs of trans people come before the safety and protection of women and children. I do agree every single person should be free to live as they wish, dress as they like, and be free from oppression or violence. However this can be achieved for trans people without compromising the rights of others, or compelling women to acknowledge natal males as women. It is not always the case that the smallest group is the most vulnerable one, although I accept generally that has been the picture throughout history. In this instance we are applying this mindset where it is simply not applicable.

I would suggest that facilities (such as rape crisis centres and certain hospital wards) are created specifically for trans people. Not only would this be better for the comfort and dignity of all concerned, but it would be advantageous to the trans community; the staff training would be geared towards the physical and mental health of trans people, and they would not receive substandard care which is a patchwork of men and women’s health.

Please remember sex is real, it exists, it matters, it has consequences. The vast majority of transwomen (80%) have not had any ‘transition’ bottom surgery and do not intend to – this reinforces the ridiculous idea that a ‘woman’ is now considered anybody that dresses in a stereotypically female way and says they are one. To draw a comparison, would you approve of a white person appropriating the highly racist ‘blackface’ and using it to apply for BAME positions within the Labour party? Even if they said they ‘felt’ BAME and wanted to be seen as such? The outrage would be entirely accepted by society, yet in this case women’s outrage is seen as bigoted. Please ask yourself what the difference is between these two scenarios. There really isn’t one.

I really didn’t expect I would have to be writing to my MP in 2020 in order to petition for natal males not to take priority in women’s rights, but I guess it has been a very strange year.

OP posts:
gardenbird48 · 23/07/2020 14:02

an outstanding letter!!!
I am going to nick a few parts of that to convince my DH of the scale of the situation and that I am not just 'looking for the bad stuff on the internet'.

PurpleCrowbarWhereIsLangCleg · 23/07/2020 14:03

Excellent email! I think you have the tone exactly right - firm but polite.

My MP is a Toryboy who is firmly GC, bless him. As a lifelong Labour voter/ex party member, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm bloody glad it's a safe seat.

gardenbird48 · 23/07/2020 14:15

@gardenbird48

an outstanding letter!!! I am going to nick a few parts of that to convince my DH of the scale of the situation and that I am not just 'looking for the bad stuff on the internet'.
if you don't mind @Wolfgirrl - it is so brilliantly clear.
Manderleyagain · 23/07/2020 15:00

Op if this conversation with your mp continues it will be worth showing her writings by lawyers that disagree with her interpretation of the law eg.
Recent article in modern law review by alessandra aster & Rebecca bull (do look this up), & another on equality by a man cited in that article. Various blogs by lawyers on the site 'legal feminist', plus one hosted by wpuk by Audrey Ludwig. But also a recent blog by the CEO of ehrc which tho in favour of gra reform, was clear that its lawful to exclude t w from female services & says guidence for service providers is needed.
That will show her at least that there is legal disagreement about how this area of law works, and little (actually almost no) case law for her to base her interpretation on.

Her reply is based on an assumption that your request (introduce safeguards for female only spaces) would need a change of law - if it were true I can see why she would think it would be a case of rolling back rights that t people already have. But in fact properly explaining the law & showing services how to use it would be enough.

It's good that she is saying that concerns should be listened to. Did she sign the Labour trans pledge that basically said concerns should not be listened to?

Some bits of her letter read like she has impiorted some American narrative - the ref to black trans women & 'batheooms' is straight out of American tra speak.

ThinEndoftheWedge · 23/07/2020 15:04

Excellent letter. Well done.

Manderleyagain · 23/07/2020 15:22

Also, it's very interesting (worrying) that she's had alot more emails against the leaked plans that for. Everyone needs to email their mp.

Good reply letter OP.

wellbehavedwomen · 23/07/2020 15:40

Brilliant letter, @Wolfgirrl. Thank you for writing it.

MoltenLasagne · 23/07/2020 15:49

Absolutely incredible letter. I found myself cheering as I read parts of it, and a stellar sign off. It's reminded me I need to chase up my MP who has not responded to my email.

Collidascope · 23/07/2020 15:49

Wow. That's a hell of an email, OP. Well done.

SirSamuelVimesBlackboardMonito · 23/07/2020 15:56

Amazing email OP, well done.

Giggorata · 23/07/2020 16:33

Brilliant.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 23/07/2020 16:36

Woah! I too may borrow some of that. Great writing!

HollowTalk · 23/07/2020 16:45

That is absolutely perfect. Congratulations.

IHeartSusanDey · 23/07/2020 17:01

That is a brilliant letter. It really hits home just how women's rights are seen as dispensable if it keeps men happy.

RedtreesRedtrees · 23/07/2020 17:06

It will certainly give one of the assistants in the MP’s office something to do, though I very much doubt they’ll read the whole thing. Sometimes brevity is most effective.

Wolfgirrl · 23/07/2020 17:24

Wow thank you ladies, I was somewhat expecting it to be picked apart (or worse, some glaring embarrassing error to be pointed out!). Very heartening to know I can draft a decent letter!

Thank you for your response @Manderleyagain . I did purposefully avoid the legal side of things, because I feel arguing semantically over the GRA sort of 'dignifies' it iyswim, but I will definitely incorporate it into a future response if needed. TRAs hide behind the failings of legislation so I'm trying to strip it back to the fact it shouldn't even exist.

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iamapixie · 23/07/2020 18:03

Great letter which has helped me understand these issues (I'm a novice in all this but getting more and more concerned about it)

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 23/07/2020 18:52

It seems a bit daft, in that none of this is new to me, but I find the fact that this letter was sent to you by a woman MP in all seriousness really distressing. As I read it I actually felt quite sick.

The fact that elected representatives can profess views which simply demolish women's rights is just so fundamentally wrong. However tired we may be (and I'm very tired) we cannot rest from the fight to preserve the rights and safeguarding of women and children. It's unconscionable that we lose the right to define ourselves as a sex class, or that girls are forced to share intimate spaces with intact males, however those males may identify.