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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

MP response. In shock.

199 replies

Wolfgirrl · 10/07/2020 19:01

Response from my MP when I emailed to object to self ID contained the sentence:

I don’t think thattranspeople should be denied rights because a minority of people will seek to exploit a new process.

So, there you have it. Men seeking to exploit self ID to attack or sexually assault women is a price worth paying to let other members of the male sex use our facilities.

I just want to cry.

Any suggestions for response will be gratefully received, but for now I am going to pour a glass of wine.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 10/07/2020 21:02

Kellie-Jay Keen interviews MP Jacky Doyle-Price (Conservative)

Towards the end of the inteview Jackie Doyle-Price gives clear advice to all women about how to encourage their MP to recognise the importance of standing for women's rights and Safeguarding.

Its well worth watching.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=R56lL7stVaE

mumwon · 10/07/2020 21:05

how can it be a minority when it affects the rights & safety of over half the population?

calllaaalllaaammma · 10/07/2020 21:07

The language she uses is very sanitised, imagine if she said it directly:
(A minority of people) Men ..(will exploit a new process...) will sexually harass/ attack & and rape women but we accept that.
Doesn't sound so palatable now.
I bet she could never write that down.

backseatcookers · 10/07/2020 21:14

The language she uses is very sanitised, imagine if she said it directly: (A minority of people) Men ..(will exploit a new process...) will sexually harass/ attack & and rape women but we accept that.

Doesn't sound so palatable now. I bet she could never write that down.

This is so well put @calllaaalllaaammma. I wish we had the opportunity to challenge statements like this with that logic and clarity, it's so frustrating when we do so we are met with straw man arguments and nonsensical bullshit bingo.

R0wantrees · 10/07/2020 21:16

LangCleg wrote Thu 21-Feb-19

"How did the scandal of TV entertainers grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

How did the scandal of Catholic priests grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

How did the scandal of on-street gangs grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

Because if you create a sacred caste of any group and silence anyone asking questions about individuals on behalf of the sacred caste, abusers will see, infiltrate, and groom and exploit children. That''s how."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3512177-Julia-Long-asking-Munro-Bergdorf-about-child-exploitation?pg=12

littlbrowndog · 10/07/2020 21:24

Great stuff here to send to the mps who bleat out same shite.

Women here are the best.

PhilomenaRumple · 12/07/2020 01:37

We must have the same MP as I got that exact response

Thesuzle · 12/07/2020 04:27

Are you in North Oxfordshire? Per chance

Wolfgirrl · 12/07/2020 12:45

Well I turned to rum in the end as wine wasnt quite hitting the mark... anyway, here is the full response:

Thanks for getting in touch with me recently regarding the Government’s proposals to scrap Gender Recognition Act (GRA) reform, and to introduce safeguards for single-sex spaces. Please accept my apologies for the delay in responding to you - as you can imagine, the office is very busy at the moment.

I know this is an emotive and contentious issue, and I understand the concerns you raise.

However, I am in favour of GRA reform, and in light of the Government’s recent actions, the Labour Party has re-committed itself to updating the GRA and upholding the Equality Act, too. This will be done in a practical and respectful way. My view is that the current process to get legal recognition of gender identity is overly medicalised and takes too long. I support moves towards a system of self-ID as I think this is fairer, and less traumatic fortranspeople. While I do understand concerns about how abusive men may exploit this process, I think there are many means for abusive men to access vulnerable women and children, and I don’t think thattranspeople should be denied rights because a minority of people will seek to exploit a new process.

I also support self-ID in general because I think people should be able to define in a way that respects their gender identity and status. As you'll know,Labour’s All Women’s Shortlists are open to all women, includingtranswomen, andtranswomen can also run for women’s officer posts within the Labour Party. I feel it is important to say that at the time of writing, I have received 61 emails from constituents opposing the Government’s stance, and 6 supporting it. Equally, 70% of responses to the GRA consultation supported moves towards self-ID.

On single-sex spaces, I think people should be able to access facilities that match their gender identity, as they have done for many years. Indeed, under the Equality Act,transpeople have the right to access single-sex services in line with their ‘acquired gender’, and they are not required to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate, or have undergone any form of medical intervention, to be eligible for support in these services. However, under the Act, it is lawful for single-sex services to provide a different service or refuse their service to someone who is undergoing, has undergone or is proposing to undergo ‘gender reassignment’, in circumstances where they can demonstrate that doing so constitutes a ‘proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim’.

Transpeople, particularlytranswomen (and by extension, particularly blacktranswomen) are especially vulnerable to being victims of violent crime and hate crime, and they, like everyone, must feel safe in bathrooms, changing rooms, and other facilities. Of course, everyone, whethertransor cis, should use such facilities respectfully, and with consideration for other users, but the vast majority of people do so in any case. On refuges, I think the focus should be on ensuring services have the resources they need to meet the needs of cis women andtranswomen. We do of course also need to listen to people’s genuine concerns about safe spaces, particularly those who have been the victim of assault or abuse – but I think these concerns can, and should, be addressed in a sensitive way without discriminating againsttranspeople.

As I’ve already said, this is a nuanced and fraught debate, and one which cannot be adequately discussed and addressed on social media or through the leaking of review recommendations. These discussions must be conducted on the basis of fact and respect, and Labour is committed to listening to women and to LGBT+ communities to ensure our policies protect and respect everyone’s rights.

It’s important to note that as yet, no official proposals have been published, and it’s unclear whether they will even go to a vote. With this in mind, I think it’s important that we wait for Liz Truss to release completed official documents before deciding on a perspective.

Once again, I want you to know that I am listening and that I take on board all perspectives on this issue, even if they differ from my own. Thanks once again for taking the time to contact me.

Any suggestions for response will be appreciated, I intend to draft a reply later on today and will post it here when I send it.

And no not in Oxfordshire - west country!

OP posts:
Wolfgirrl · 12/07/2020 12:46

The thing that strikes me the most is that I wrote to her about womens rights, yet the entire response is promoting trans rights...

OP posts:
highame · 12/07/2020 12:49

and Labour is committed to listening to women and to LGBT+ communities to ensure our policies protect and respect everyone’s rights.

Is it just be, or does this sound a bit patronising....of course it does, Labour isn't interested in women's rights

highame · 12/07/2020 12:49

me not be

wellbehavedwomen · 12/07/2020 12:52

@Wolfgirrl

The thing that strikes me the most is that I wrote to her about womens rights, yet the entire response is promoting trans rights...
Might be a good point to raise in the response. Because that's it, isn't it? You try to raise the impact on women's rights. Those rights are, still, and as always, ignored in favour of centring people born male.
rabbitwoman · 12/07/2020 12:56

I have emailed my MP asking when surgeries are open again and she replied saying they are on now, over the phone, when am I free.

I have already emailed her and got a fairly positive reply.

I am a bit tired of all the same arguments and just want solutions and a way forward now. My first idea is to change protected characteristics on the equality act - upgrade it to add Gender ID as a protected characteristic, but this will include CIS gender as well, thus protecting women from nasty abuse and threats to their careers if they want to maintain safe spaces at work, etc.....

GinghamStyle · 12/07/2020 13:00

I can’t help but feel that you’ve been sent a standard reply.

I don’t think you’ll be able to obtain a response regarding the points you raised about women’s rights because it seem so obvious from the MP’s email that trans rights trump women’s rights.

Long gone are the days of NuLabour - the days of WokeLabour are upon us.

happydappy2 · 12/07/2020 14:04

Don’t the rights of children, trump the rights of adults? Girls have a right to single sex spaces, that right must override mens wishes to access womens & girls spaces. It’s basic safeguarding.

R0wantrees · 12/07/2020 14:16

@happydappy2

Don’t the rights of children, trump the rights of adults? Girls have a right to single sex spaces, that right must override mens wishes to access womens & girls spaces. It’s basic safeguarding.
Yes, the responsibility to Safeguard children and Vulnerable Adults trumps individual adult's rights. The Safeguarding framework has been disregarded by those working from an individual rights' perspective which illustrates how few people understand Safeguarding and who they are.
peadarm · 12/07/2020 15:38

Pretty much every category of criminal is a "minority of people". A minority is too many.

It's bizarre. Only a minority of people kill other people: should we decriminalise murder? It's only a minority after all...

christinarossetti19 · 12/07/2020 16:19

That reply reeks of 'digesting Stonewall hook, line and sinker' right from the erroneous 'introduce safeguards for single-sex spaces'.

That's why the author can't address natal women's rights. Stonewall's only line on that is 'STFU you transphobes'.

I would write a very concise reply, just reiterating the issues about women's rights that you wrote in your letter to her.

Wondersense · 12/07/2020 16:25

If you feel safe to do so, please name the MP. People have a right to know who represents them and what they stand for.

ChattyLion · 12/07/2020 16:25

I would also use the phrase ‘men’s sexual entitlement campaign‘ quite freely, because women facilitating that is what the MP is saying we should do.

Wondersense · 12/07/2020 16:28

Also, their argument simply doesn't stand up.

Please write back and ask if they believe if safe guarding practices and criminal checks should be abolished if one wishes to work with vulnerable people, including children? After all, only a small minority of people are paedophiles.

peadarm · 12/07/2020 16:39

"That reply reeks of 'digesting Stonewall hook, line and sinker' right from the erroneous 'introduce safeguards for single-sex spaces'."

Yep. The current liberal-left orthodoxy is to 'stay in your lane' and outsource all identity issues to the most visible 'representatives' of that identity.

Rather than think about it for yourself.

I do wonder if it takes its cue in part from standpoint feminism's concept of "epistemic authority"? And the likes of Judith Butler.

CaptainCorellisPangolin · 12/07/2020 16:44

Like PP said, if you feel safe to do so, could you please name the MP? If they have such blatant disregard for women, people should know about it.

Porridgeoat · 12/07/2020 18:30

I would reply with .. Sex is a protected characteristic and this status firmly safeguards women and children. Statistics show that assaults happen at a higher rate in mixed sex environments (quote facts found on line). It’s incredibly concerning that the Labour Party seek to throw women and children’s safety under the bus in order to placate the feeling of physical males who state they are women. People with gender dysphoria need to have their needs met but not at the expense of women a safety.