A question for Transmen and Transwomen

[SpiritOfEnquiry]

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.

1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

Being called 'sir' isn't really anything to do with gender roles, and it's not because of respect that I like that - random men calling me 'mate' has the same impact

Can you explain what exactly it is that you like about being called 'sir' or 'mate'? It would be interesting to unpack that.

Although I've not experienced dysphoria in the same way, or to the same extreme degree as you, clearly, have, I do first recall being mistaken for a boy at the age of about 10.

At that time ( 1970's) lots of girls had short hair - unlike now, when most school girls have long hair. I've always liked having my hair short. Makes me feel unencumbered and liberated. And it is now my default model.

I now have a very 'full' female figure, though, and wear skirts most of the time, so I no longer get mistaken for a male ( although on the other forum I mentioned earlier, I do. Men assume I am male because of the way I post, and my interest in urban architecture). I like men, in general, and get on with them.

Anyway, age 10, I was on holiday with my parents in N.Wales, and as was my habit, I would wander off and go walking about and exploring the environment on my own ( still do - my favourite thing!). I ended up at a small fair ground on the promenade, and someone causally referred to me as "that boy". My initially reaction was to be offended, but within a second or two I actually grew into the idea, and thought, " This is interesting".

I sensed how people's reactions to me were just that bit different because they subliminally registered me as a boy. I liked it! It brought out certain aspects of me. Brought them to the fore.

As a young woman, I would look at fanciable and attractive men on the street sometimes, and imagine that " if I was a man, I'd fancy you".
'Gender' is complex, and is founded upon often deep rooted symbolism. I'm definitely heterosexual, though, but have always liked quite soft and sensitive men, or those who like to adorn themselves.

As it happens, I also think that deeper collective symbolism does have its roots in biological sex and what flows from that -even as we all operate along a spectrum. Containing within ourselves both masculine and feminine imagery.

@deepwatersolo

how many times do I have to explain this! I don't actually care about stereotypes it just gives me one second of happiness? I'm impacted by society in that I know what things are stereotypically male/female but I really do not care enough about stereotypes that I would spend thousands of pounds and hurt my family to fit in with stereotypes. I don't even do that much 'male' stuff!

how many times do I have to explain this!

It's like MBD said upthread. Some just don't want to try and listen, and will instead repeatedly tell you what you are or aren't.
Have no intention of listening, I mean you couldn't be any clearer.

Also interesting that Alex specifically said it's not about stereotypes (will try and find the post) but people keep dragging it back to stereotypes and what girls are supposed to like and what boys are supposed to like - it's nothing to do with that!

god I am really losing the will to live

I'm so sick of that being a crutch - it is so manipulative, incoherent, and immature. FFS

@SpartacusAutisticus

I mean there's a lot more to body dysphoria than that. I have pretty bad dysphoria about a lot of stuff that would exist regardless of gender roles.

@Justhadathought

Just that they see me as a man really, that's it. Not really about how I'm treated, I mean it's not as if waiters reading me as male and calling me 'sir' impacts anything.

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

thank you!!

@FireUnderTheHand

jesus christ it is just a phrase! if I'm so stupid then just stop engaging?

I'm impacted by society in that I know what things are stereotypically male/female but I really do not care enough about stereotypes...

You are impacted by society in that its arbitrary designation of shit as 'male' or 'female' impacts your happiness. If you don't think that's a pretty big thing, I don't know what to tell you.

@deepwatersolo

It impacts my happiness for about one whole second and clearly doesn't impact me much considering I do a 'female' degree and have 'female' interests?

I mean there's a lot more to body dysphoria than that. I have pretty bad dysphoria about a lot of stuff that would exist regardless of gender roles.

I had pretty bad body dysphoria as a teen. Clearly that dyshporia did not exist in a vacuum but reflected societal beauty standards. (Even though at the time I was adamant that I just don't see myself with XYZ, and my aesthetic preferences just so happened to coincide with societal preferences...)

[quote alexk3]@deepwatersolo

how many times do I have to explain this! I don't actually care about stereotypes it just gives me one second of happiness? I'm impacted by society in that I know what things are stereotypically male/female but I really do not care enough about stereotypes that I would spend thousands of pounds and hurt my family to fit in with stereotypes. I don't even do that much 'male' stuff![/quote]
Alex, I think I get what you're saying - please correct me if wrong.

About a year ago, you started to recognise a real disgust for your body, as it felt wholly wrongly sexed to you. This affected everything about your life, from your sense of self, to your relationship with your partner, to your mental health. It's centred around an absolute distaste for and sense that your body is all wrong, and that you feel you would not suffer that intense dysphoria, if your body were male. You find alleviation of that intense distress in adopting male dress and what's seen as male demeanour, so others see you as male (I would imagine as a bit younger than you are, perhaps?). That sense of dysphoria is wholly inward, to your mind, and related to your actual physical body, and not a gender role per se. And it's not something you've chosen, or would want, as you see costs to your loved ones, social costs to you, and financial costs of the treatments you feel would be likely to alleviate that distress.

At the same time, you recognise that you have grown up in a society that is inherently and pervasively gendered, and therefore you recognise that while you don't feel your dysphoria is societal in origin, adopting behaviours and activities that our society codes as male does allow you some temporary happiness and alleviation from the dysphoria, because it reinforces your sense that you are living in a male way. You're aware of that as a gender role rather than innate, and that's why you raised it at all; not that you believe those gender roles are what defines masculinity, but that you acknowledge the interplay and that one does interact with the other.

Is that what you meant to say, or do I have this wrong, too? Apologies if so. I am, genuinely, trying to understand what you are saying.

The only part that I suppose I don't understand is that you say your dysphoria became acute when you left a single sex environment, and encountered unpleasant male behaviour. I suppose I'm a bit confused on when it first manifested, really, and if you have any idea on what the roots might be there (as always, I appreciate that you are a person and not a case study, and I completely respect that you're under no obligation at all to talk about anything beyond your own comfort zone. The priority always, always needs to be your own boundaries and mental health - please don't think I don't know that, and ignore anything you don't feel okay about discussing).

I don't even do that much 'male' stuff

How do men tend to respond to you, out of interest? Do they acknowledge you as male, if you know what I mean? Do you feel at ease in the men's loos?

One of the de-transitioners, at the Manchester event I mentioned earlier, talked about how she used to play basketball with a men's team, but how she never really felt fully at ease with that; but now that she plays with a women's team, of mainly lesbians, she takes far more pleasure and joy in it.

Well, thanks for the reminder, the grass needs cutting.

@FantaOra

Well, thanks for the reminder, the grass needs cutting.

I've told the kids we're being nice to the insects this year. It's a natural meadow look.

I'm so sick of that being a crutch - it is so manipulative, incoherent, and immature. FFS

Losing the will to live? It's a perfectly normal saying, FFS.
Are you UK? Totally normal here. It doesn't mean you literally are losing the will to live and being manipulative to people

jesus christ it is just a phrase!

Just seen this post before posting my comment - must admit I was like "whut?!"

Just that they see me as a man really, that's it. Not really about how I'm treated, I mean it's not as if waiters reading me as male and calling me 'sir' impacts anything

I'm interested in how that translates, though. In them seeing you as a male......what does that feel like, for example? Is it about respect, brotherhood, or what? I find this fascinating. Could it be because as a lesbian you do not want to be seen as an object of male sexual attention, and are relieved that there is absolutely no hint of that?

Saying things is one thing, trying to understand what lies beneath is another , more interesting thing , for me. Definitely!

Yeah I love the meadow and the moss and always go around the flowering bits..the thistles and dandelions get a good slashing.

Everyone knows what is stereotypically male/female

This needs looking at, I think - e.g. football - male in the UK, female in America. Pink in the past = boy colour. LOADS of things are only stereotypically male/female because everyone tells each other they are. So much is arbitrary!

Alex I would say that if pressed, quite a lot of us here would say they don't have an innate gender - they would probably be classed as agender or gender-free, and this comes under the trans umbrella. (Stonewall). Do you think we "should" be able to call ourselves trans? Are we as valid as trans people as MTF/FTM transitioners? While I accept 'genuine' trans people as trans I do have trouble with the wild and wonderful additions to the trans umbrella being supposedly treated the same without recognising key differences.

It impacts my happiness for about one whole second and clearly doesn't impact me much considering I do a 'female' degree and have 'female' interests?

Well, ideally pursuing a 'female' degree (whatever that is supposed to be) should feel at least as validating as mowing the lawn or whatever. All I am saying is that the idea that society has not much impact on you is ridiculous considering your f*ing dysphoria revolves largely around something entirely constructed by society.
Also, considering that guys come in all shapes and forms, I sure wonder whether it is really the male body per se - in any shape or form - that you would be happy with and that would alleviate your dysphoria, or whether is is specifically a lean, muscular body that society holds up as the 'young male body' ideal.

sorry if I repeated points - this thread is moving fast

I mean it's not as if waiters reading me as male and calling me 'sir' impacts anything

Of course it does! I recognised that at age 10. It transmits certain social and cultural clues and messages, and impacts on how you perceive yourself, and which aspects of yourself can more easily come to the fore.

i know that on a forum that it almost completely populated by men, that once they realise they I am female, it changes their response to me. Often quite dramatically.

@deepwatersolo

feel for you but not my experience, I'd make a pretty fit lesbian haha it's just not me.

@wellbehavedwomen

yes pretty much, had some thing pre- a year ago but that's broadly it.

second paragraph is bang on, thank you for actually reading my words!

wasn't really after encountering men in a bad way. I've had like 3(?) main bad clubbing experiences (which is when I get random people interacting w me the most because obviously everyones drunk). Been groped by a lesbian on my 18th, and then groped by a man and half-strangled by another (bloody men) since I came out to my friends. I also don't know when it manifested though! I hated my name as a child and having my photo taken, was a tomboy (not that that means anything!!!!). In puberty I didn't like my body but I didn't know about trans stuff (if it was dysphoria) and wanted breast/genital surgery to make those areas less bad - even though now I think (in the least self congratulory way) I would probably get with a girl with my body haha. In GCSEs and sixth form I had a bit of chest dysphoria but mostly like how I looked in clothes not just on my own and it's just got worse since I was at uni/in a relationship. no worries though I don't mind answering stuff like this, it's like free therapy haha.

@Justhadathought

yeah men are fine with me, very drunkenly sliced my finger open a while back and a boy in the club toilets when I was trying to wash my hands half dragged me to the nurse, and didn't say anything about me being there. Hardly ever been misgendered (twice I think?) so think I pass quite well really.

I can't help it that some things are seen as gendered, and that because I have dysphoria I like doing things that are stereotypically male?

Some things are seen as gendered? By whom? Do you like doing these things because they're stereotypically male or is that just a coincidence that the things you like doing are stereotypically male?

And this seems to contradict what you said in a later post:

I'm impacted by society in that I know what things are stereotypically male/female but I really do not care enough about stereotypes...

Honestly, I'm confused now.