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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A question for Transmen and Transwomen

999 replies

SpiritOfEnquiry · 09/07/2020 14:01

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

  1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.
  1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

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alexk3 · 13/07/2020 21:11

@OldCrone

I mean 'like' not as in 'do I enjoy it' but 'like' as in does it alleviate my dysphoria/make me feel like a man, sorry thought that that was clear.

I've said about 100 times that I do not think stereotypes should play into whether someone transitions!

RufustheRowlingReindeer · 13/07/2020 21:13

I mean 'like' not as in 'do I enjoy it' but 'like' as in does it alleviate my dysphoria/make me feel like a man, sorry thought that that was clear

I was confused by that as well

Absolutely get it now

alexk3 · 13/07/2020 21:14

@RufustheRowlingReindeer

sorry yes probably could have been phrased better

RufustheRowlingReindeer · 13/07/2020 21:15

Its probably not you alex

Can take me a while Grin

FloralBunting · 13/07/2020 21:16

alex, you said

yes, I obviously know about gender roles but I'm saying that that is not significant to anything. Everyone knows what is stereotypically male/female, and yes I've said it makes me happy when I do 'male' things. If I didn't have an innate sense of gender then why would I like to do random 'male' things?

To clarify, because I think you've misunderstood me - I'm not suggesting you are unaware of gender roles or stereotypes. I'm saying that you (and all of us really) are unaware of exactly how much those cultural things have affected us, in our assumptions, attitudes and behaviour, even down to our very sense of self. The very fact that you can identify something as a random 'male' thing is part of that. You have a sense of gender. I'm not denying that. My only suggestion here is that you think it has sprung up in a vacuum, but actually, just as all of us, you have absorbed messages about men and women and 'gender' for your entire existence, and they have combined with your bodily disconnect and it's not innate at all. It's real, I'm not disputing that. But it's not as unaffected by the world around you as you are convinced.

Anyway, I think you've probably had enough laser focus for the day, and I bloody know I have! I think I'm going to shut off my brain for a bit and eat crisps. Hope you have a good evening alex, and thank you for engaging.

FireUnderTheHand · 13/07/2020 21:18

I've said it makes me happy when I do 'male' things. If I didn't have an innate sense of gender then why would I like to do random 'male' things?

The only things that are 'male things' are jacking off, prostate cancer treatment, and other things that require 'maleness' to participate (like receiving family titles restricted to bio males). Otherwise they are things that people do.

Since man can mean anything and woman can mean anything your feminism means anything and nothing.

Your few words speak volumes.

OldCrone · 13/07/2020 21:22

I mean 'like' not as in 'do I enjoy it' but 'like' as in does it alleviate my dysphoria/make me feel like a man, sorry thought that that was clear.

I've said about 100 times that I do not think stereotypes should play into whether someone transitions!

I'm confused now because you keep talking about stereotypically 'male' activities and how they make you feel better. Maybe that's because you just enjoy those activities, and it's nothing to do with your 'gender identity'.

I was replying to your post where you said:
Everyone knows what is stereotypically male/female, and yes I've said it makes me happy when I do 'male' things. If I didn't have an innate sense of gender then why would I like to do random 'male' things?

So it seems that the stereotypes are important to you, because you seem very hung up on what is coded 'male' or 'female' (I have spent a lifetime trying to avoid those labels on anything which isn't related to the biology of sexed bodies).

Can you explain what it means to 'feel like a man'? Because I have no idea what it's like to 'feel like a man' (or 'feel like a woman' for that matter).

alexk3 · 13/07/2020 21:24

@FloralBunting

That's your opinion and that's fine but I just don't agree really. I don't think I've grown up in a vacuum at all, I just don't think that my sense of self is massively impacted by society. Thank though, you too.

@FireUnderTheHand

Yes, I know that they are technically things that people do, I was talking about stereotypes? My few words! Half of this bloody thread has been written by me!

RufustheRowlingReindeer · 13/07/2020 21:26

She meant those words in particular alex

Not all your words on the thread

alexk3 · 13/07/2020 21:28

@OldCrone

I have not based any of my questioning on whether I conform to certain roles/expectations. That's why I said it hasn't got anything to do with it. Doing some stereotypically 'male' things can make me feel happier in my identity, but that is an effect and not a cause.

I'm hung up on it becase despite the fact that I have tried to not bring up any stereotypes in regards to my transness, it seems to be the current talking point! I've said, again numerous times, that I don't seek out 'male' things to do because I don't really care, it's just nice if it happens that I do them because my fun medical condition makes my brain think in that way.

Not really, again I just like being referred to as a man and want to look male. I look at myself and I see a young man. There's no explaining it really it just is like that.

TinselAngel · 13/07/2020 21:29

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

Think there's a word for that, telling somebody something hasn't been said when it actually has. Thank goodness for words on a thread eh, where you can scroll back instead of being made to doubt yourself?
Like earlier in the thread when you said you hadn't said "shitty" but really you had?
OldCrone · 13/07/2020 21:29

I just don't think that my sense of self is massively impacted by society.

And yet you seem almost obsessed by stereotypes.

alexk3 · 13/07/2020 21:30

@RufustheRowlingReindeer

yes I was mostly taking the mick, though both of my replies to her have been fairly long so i'm not even sure what words she's referring to to be honest

RufustheRowlingReindeer · 13/07/2020 21:30

Like earlier in the thread when you said you hadn't said "shitty" but really you had

Maybe shitty is the word lemonade is searching for

alexk3 · 13/07/2020 21:31

@OldCrone

because it's all people have asked me about for the past 100 messages?

RufustheRowlingReindeer · 13/07/2020 21:31

Sorry alex

Told you it takes me a while 😀

alexk3 · 13/07/2020 21:32

@RufustheRowlingReindeer

no worries haha I'm the same

OldCrone · 13/07/2020 21:32

Doing some stereotypically 'male' things can make me feel happier in my identity, but that is an effect and not a cause.

But why do you insist on categorising these things as 'male'? I would never categorise any of my interests as 'male' or 'female'. They're all just things I like. Can you give an example or two of some of the things you think of as 'male'? I really thought we'd left that sort of stereotyping behind us 50 years ago.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 13/07/2020 21:33

Like earlier in the thread when you said you hadn't said "shitty" but really you had?

People were saying I'd called you shitty - I was answering a question posed to me not you and I said I'd feel it shitty behaviour - before knowing that I was supposed to have a background knowledge of all people's personal lives before proffering opinions and "go read the trans widows threads, educate myself"
I was asked what would I do if my husband said he was trans.
I answered the questions, was it supposed to be about you instead?
Seems a bit daft to ask a question if there's a chance you're not going to like someone's answer.

TinselAngel · 13/07/2020 21:33

When you're in a hole it's usual to stop digging.

deepwatersolo · 13/07/2020 21:35

I've said, again numerous times, that I don't seek out 'male' things to do because I don't really care, it's just nice if it happens that I do them because my fun medical condition makes my brain think in that way.

Which would be proof that you are massively impacted by society. After all it is society that defines what is the 'male' stuff that makes you happy. Just sayin'.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 13/07/2020 21:35

Whatever

alexk3 · 13/07/2020 21:37

@OldCrone

god I am really losing the will to live! I mean with the lawn thing it's because my stepdad usually does it and he showed me how. I also don't categorise my interests like that? I do a 'female' degree in terms of societal views but I've never thought about that until just now. Nothing is inherently male/female obviously but some things are viewed as more masculine/feminine. We have! I can't help it that some things are seen as gendered, and that because I have dysphoria I like doing things that are stereotypically male? It's not as if me enjoying doing a 'male' thing is pushing back women's rights 50 years... really not that deep

FireUnderTheHand · 13/07/2020 21:38

Thanks Rufus, I don't know how much clearer I could have been - I mean it was a response to a quote.

In this Brave New World Orwellian nirvana words mean everything and nothing. Making my brain itch for de Beauvoir with a strong side of Sartre. Nothingness is everything and in direct conflict with the pending dystopia.

Cascade220 · 13/07/2020 21:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.