Raising a theybie

[HDDD]

A theybie? A theybie?
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/jul/08/parent-raising-gender-free-child

Yep, what’s wrong with jeans and a hoodie?

I suspect that jeans and a hoodie with that hairstyle wouldn’t be enough of a statement. And people wouldn’t know how special the child and parent were.

I feel so sorry for that child, because as soon as they start kindergarten they will be educated by the other kids and no longer special.

On day one, some kids will ask if Sea they are a boy or girl. If child doesn't know how to tell The difference, another child will soon tell or show them.

That will be the start of a long battle between the parent and the rest of the world as they try to impose their world view on everyone else. And Sea will be the collateral damage.

wonder if the Guardian would be interested in a contribution from my husband and I for their genderqueer series. I just replaced the window in my shed while my husband vacuumed the living room.
😀😀😀

Lotta, I think this is a problem that no one is willing to acknowledge because we're feminists and we don't want to knock other women. But let's face it, It's mainly 'traditional' young women with 'traditional' views of what women are good at and what they should enjoy who go into childcare. And most of those young women aren't the high-achieving, questioning, politicised kind.

Conversely, I was recently working in this area, with older toddlers to 10 year olds. But in a largely outdoor/forest camp setting. And I was honestly despairing at the utterly impractical 'girliness' of so many of the girls' clothing and footwear on a day to day basis. Don't get me wrong. There is absolutely nothing wrong with frilly dresses and sparkles if that's what a kid is into. But a child has to learn to dress in a way that suits their activity. To see girls coming to us day in day out, in mary-jane shoes, light tights and dresses, when we were spending our days outside, in often crap weather was mind-boggling. The girls were often deeply uncomfortable as they had to put waterproof clothing on over big stand out dresses. Or were hindered in their tree climbing or ball kicking by shoes that had no grip/sufficient foot protection. And had to be kept further back from the campfire because their dresses were just dangerous.

We were trying hard to just let kids be kids but many girls were hindered before they got to us. Along those lines, I've noticed an increase in dress codes at some of my DS's extracurricular activities. With many stating that a t-shirt/sweater, leggings/tracksuit bottoms and runners are mandatory. I'm assuming this is why.

Yep, what’s wrong with jeans and a hoodie? Behave! That's male clothing.. Tomboys and all that!

Gender neitral would be, erm, er, hhmm! That's harder than I thought!

A tank top and shirt over a skirt?

Wrap top over jeans?

Erm.... I've just described my usual day wear!

barbara the lawyer has created an identity around having a computer keyboard with a broken shift key. Clever.

I really hope Sea grows up with an enquiring mind and sensible friends. I can see Sea ending up being a tax accountant called Sean or Sheryl once old enough to make autonomous decisions.

I Would have thought that someone’s seeking to raise a gender neutral child would had gender neutral clothes and hairstyles. It’s almost as if such things wouldn’t have caused enough attention.

Its precisely that.

People often used to assume my son was a girl and daughter a son when they were small, which was odd, because she wore his hand-me-downs. Now, she's the active and sporty one and he's the quiet bookworm... but she loves sparkly pretty dresses. He did too when very small, but the world's taught him otherwise, so he wears very traditionally boys clothes now.

I get where this parent is coming from. I just think that we have to raise our kids to be able to fit into the world we all inhabit, and to be as free as possible from having a target on their backs in the school years, especially.

We don't live in a gender free world. If we did, the whole trans thing would not exist, because any sex could express any gender behaviour without literally having to believe they had changed that sex.

And the basis of women's oppression isn't gender. It's sex. Clothes and pronouns don't, sadly, address that at all. If only it were that simple.

I'm confused, Scrappy. In what way does the fact that some girls are sent by their parents to Forest School inappropriately dressed contradict my assertion that many people who choose to work in childcare/ early years/ primary eduction hold traditional gender-stereotypical views?

If a girl comes from a family where girls wear pink dresses and go to nursery and then early years education where they are cared for/ taught by people who don't see an issue with that and don't challenge those gender assumptions then they really are scuppered, aren't they? They need someone, at some point, to challenge these expectations — and someone like you to tell parents to put their girls into practical clothing.

@HereComesTheSummer

I Would have thought that someone’s seeking to raise a gender neutral child would had gender neutral clothes and hairstyles. It’s almost as if such things wouldn’t have caused enough attention.

Its precisely that.

Yeah, my kids had lots of leggings with neutral prints, and similar t shirts. Lots of rainbows as they both loved them. Primary colours, animal cartoons, soft cottons. Genuinely not gendered at all, just easy to change, soft to wear, and easy to launder. They didn't stand out in the slightest, but it was hard for other people to know what sex they were. It's not remotely hard to dress a small child in unobtrusively gender neutral ways. Nor is it hard to make both knight and Ninjago dressing up available alongside the Frozen frocks and tutus. In my experience small kids love both - not just my two, all of them.

The irony in investing in stereotypical sex attributes/clothing/toys to raise a gender free child seems to be almost as lost by this parent as the fact their choices clearly identify the sex of their son.

But then, it's clearly not about the child is it.

It's affirmation of their own ideology - a pseudo gender Munchausen by proxy.

@Shedbuilder I'm confused, Scrappy. In what way does the fact that some girls are sent by their parents to Forest School inappropriately dressed contradict my assertion that many people who choose to work in childcare/ early years/ primary eduction hold traditional gender-stereotypical views?

It doesn’t contradict it but shows that the opposite also happens. People running children’s activities/care environments find their attempts to provide a space for children to not be pigeonholed by their sex are hindered by the way the child has been dressed. Leading to kids either being held back in what they can do or activity leaders having to implement neutral dress codes so girls’ opportunities to participate aren’t limited.

What's wrong with implementing a dress code that enables all children to take part? I was under the impression that all FS pupils were sent home with a note reminding parents that they shouldn't be dressed in anything delicate or that might be ruined by mud.

That's all part of the education for parents and students. The Forest School locally seems to be set up to kit out all children in waterproofs and wellies anyway, regardless of what clothing they turn up in. And the Forest School leader at the local FS (who's a lesbian) wouldn't think twice about telling a parent not to send any child, male or female, to FS in the kind of clothing that you describe. That's what educators are there for — to educate children yes, but sometimes also parents.

Is Sea definitely a boy?

DD works at a dance school and they have the problem Shed talks about with the younger girls. Pro dancers might wear tutus on stage, but tutu dresses are not for ballet class. Little girls need simple, stretchy clothes they can move in, and so that the teacher can assess their body position for both correctness and preventing injury.

Boys who dance also need to wear appropriate supportive underwear from a certain age, regardless of gender identity. There is a male teacher at the school who handles "The Talk" in these cases.

Sea is an unusual name. Is it like:

ceefur and deefur (cat and dog names: ‘c for’ cat and ‘d for’ dog)? C for child?

I predict young ‘John’ will run away from home to become a tax accountant the minute they turn 16...

@Shedbuilder there is nothing wrong with it, apart from the fact that within the context of this discussion it's a pity it's necessary. Parents should know to send a child to an activity in clothing that doesn't hinder them. Unfortunately in my experience, a huge amount of girls show up in utterly unsuitable clothing and footwear that hinders their ability to do the things they want to. And more often than not, the girls keep coming in unsuitable clothing while drifting away from the activities they initially wanted to do.

While I don't doubt that there are childcare providers who reinforce gender stereotypes on children. In my experience, childcare providers who are deliberately trying to avoid children falling prey to that stereotyping are already on that path before they leave home because of the clothing they arrive in. A dress code is completely sensible, it just shouldn't be necessary because we shouldn't have returned to a trend where many girls are, more often than not, dressed in clothing that just isn't suitable for a full range of play.

wonder if the Guardian would be interested in a contribution from my husband and I for their genderqueer series. I just replaced the window in my shed while my husband vacuumed the living room

Only if you think you are super special😂😂

I actually think Dd at nursery did dress gender neutral.

She always chose her own clothes and her go to ensemble was a dress and trousers.

At nursery they all wore the same joggers and sweatshirt.

Oops, wrong thread.

If you say Sea's name as spelled out loud you get Cyril!

Just saying (out loud)

Is the dressing up as a male seahorse a regular thing for boys these days or is it to do with "they"? Just wondering, as I noticed on a celeb's instagram that her son dresses up as one.

^ I mean mermaid not seahorse!
Excuse my mistake

Is the dressing up as a male seahorse a regular thing for boys these days

What is the difference in dressing up as a female seahorse.