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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Raising a theybie

200 replies

HDDD · 08/07/2020 12:08

A theybie? A theybie?
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/jul/08/parent-raising-gender-free-child

OP posts:
Loveinatimeofcovid · 09/07/2020 06:22

I know someone who does this. It’s really bizarre. Why not do what all good progressive parents do a say there’s no such thing as girls you’d or boys clothes etc. instead of reinforcing moronic gender stereotypes. It’s almost like a whole bunch of people have time traveled from the 1950s and a trying really hard to pass themselves off a progressive.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 09/07/2020 06:23

Puberty is the key, as far as I understand it. A girl who never goes through female puberty will never have periods or develop breasts. I don't know what would happen if after years on T she desisted and sought female hormone treatment in the hope of finally going through female puberty. I don't think this has yet. I doubt her fertility could be restored, but we need a scientist or endocrinologist for this.

Antibles · 09/07/2020 06:23

Slight bold fail above. Also meant to add, you don't notice it when it's stuff you agree with, but when you go off message you realise the resources backing this agenda.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 09/07/2020 06:24

^ happened

LittleEntrepeneur · 09/07/2020 06:25

This as at gross variance with the whole Trans movement. The 'you can be what you want to be regardless of your sex'. Whereas the Trans movement is very much, 'I like wearing dresses therefore I am a woman.'

AdultFishcakes · 09/07/2020 06:30

@nauticant

www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/parent-fights-to-omit-gender-on-b-c-child-s-birth-certificate-1.4186221

According to Doty's lawyer, barbara findlay (who doesn't spell her name with capital letters),

A big LOL from me.

ahahahaomg

Literally it’s like reading an excerpt from “Fucknuts Weekly”.

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 09/07/2020 06:33

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

Puberty is the key, as far as I understand it. A girl who never goes through female puberty will never have periods or develop breasts. I don't know what would happen if after years on T she desisted and sought female hormone treatment in the hope of finally going through female puberty. I don't think this has yet. I doubt her fertility could be restored, but we need a scientist or endocrinologist for this.
Thanks. If this is the case, then I would really hope puberty blockers followed by T at 16 is a vanishingly rare occurrence... definitely something I need to read further into!
Siablue · 09/07/2020 07:08

I also thought the child was male because of the dress. They do have short hair though. So when not wearing a dress are more likely to be read as male.

Nquartz · 09/07/2020 07:14

@LittleEntrepeneur

This as at gross variance with the whole Trans movement. The 'you can be what you want to be regardless of your sex'. Whereas the Trans movement is very much, 'I like wearing dresses therefore I am a woman.'
See i really like this message (you can be what you want to be regardless of your sex) and that is what I'm trying to instil.I'm DD. She loves pink & dresses, wants to be an engineer or inventor, loves science & making bead bracelets for her friends. One of my favourite photos of her is when she's wearing a pink fairy costume playing with her tool set and trains Grin
Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 09/07/2020 07:32

In this country I think it is still fairly rare, Nell, but I don't have the figures. Almost all the children who've had this would have gone through the Tavistock GIDS clinic if they live in England, Wales or NI. I'm not sure but I think it's possible that there's a separate service for Scotland. Some children in NI might have been referred to Dublin.

It is possible to get private treatment for children. Dr Helen Webberley was running a private GP service over the internet providing hormones to families with gender dysphoric teens. She was suspended by the GMC because of one very problematic case. She and her husband (also suspended for similar reasons) have re-located their business to Spain. Mermaids continued to recommend them after the suspension. Not sure if this is still the case.

In the US and Canada, unfortunately, things are worse. Not sure how many children are on puberty blockers or what age they start, ditto moving onto cross-hormones with or without having taken puberty blockers first. What I do know is that a small number of young teenagers have had 'top surgery', the euphemistic name for a double mastectomy. This is even covered by health insurance. Why it's legal to do this on a minor child who doesn't have a life-threatening health condition is a mystery to me.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 09/07/2020 07:42

So interesting to see other parents reporting feeling the same mystification I feel when I read accounts like this. I have a daughter and a son. They were very different as children. This is because they are two different people. Every time I come across a parent talking about how they knew their child was trans, I look for something more than gender stereotypes. I've not seen it yet. This is one from the Mermaids website. I would have expected them to have dozens of accounts to choose from so if this is the one they decided to put on the webpage, I assume it's typical and they expect other parents to relate to it. mermaidsuk.org.uk/parents/resources-for-parents/


Kelly, 40, is mum to Adam, nine and Evie, seven, who transitioned to live as a girl 2015. Here Kelly, who is married to Andrew, 46, explains how Mermaids have helped her family.
Kelly said:
“From the age of two we started to notice that Evie didn’t quite fit in. I thought that my son was going to be gay, but it became apparent that there was something more than that.

“Evie always wanted to play with dolls, and never had any interest in traditional boys toys, like cars or dinosaurs. We had an older son and the two could not have been more different.

“Evie loved bracelets and constantly wanted to wear one, and when I bought the children Guess Who? to play she unclipped all the female faces and put them in a handbag to carry around with her.

“Evie would look longingly at other little girls who were wearing dresses or skirts, and every time I picked her up from the childminder she would be have raided the dressing up box for a princess costume. She would come to the door to meet me in a sparkly pink dress and a tiara with a big smile on her face.

“At other children’s houses she would love putting on the princess outfits, and would have a meltdown when she had to take them off as it was time to leave.

“I wasn’t sure how to cope with how Evie was behaving. Some family members said I should try and make her be a boy, get her to play with boys’ toys and dress her in boys’ clothes, but it became a daily battle. Every time we went to the supermarket she would make a beeline for the aisle with all the dolls and girls toys and get very upset when I told her they weren’t for her.

“I told myself it was a phase but the longer it went on, the more I realised that this wasn’t a temporary thing, it’s who Evie is.

“I didn’t know anything about trans children but I spent hours researching online. I found YouTube videos featuring trans children in America, and cried as I watched them. As a parent you don’t want your child to be trans, as you know the path ahead of them will be so much harder. They may well be bullied at school and discriminated against as they grow older, and they may need life-changing surgery to feel at home in their body. You worry about their future as other people may judge them and find them difficult to understand.

“From the age of four we started to let Evie bring girls’ clothes and toys into the house, and when she was five she told me her biggest dream in the world was to own a dress, so I bought her one and she barely took it off.

“It was around this time that I found Mermaids, and they were an incredible source of information and support. Suddenly, instead of being at a loss as to what to do I was in daily contact with other parents around the country who were in the same situation, who shared my worries and fears. But they also provided amazing support, and I know we are lucky that Evie identified as trans so young.

“Families who have teenagers who have just come out as trans face the trauma of puberty, but thankfully that is years away for Evie. We started seeing the specialist staff at the Tavistock just as Evie turned five, so hopefully the right treatment will be available if she decides to go down that road in the future.

“Mermaids have also helped Evie to meet other trans children by organising meet-ups in our area, and it’s been brilliant for her to see other kids who are going through the same things she is.

“As time went on Evie began to identify more and more strongly as a girl. By the time she was six she would come home from school, take off her boys’ uniform and put her dress on. You could see her visibly relax as she clearly felt happier and better in herself when she was wearing it. Soon after she told me she was a girl, and by May 2015 she asked if she could begin living as a girl.

“We informed school, who were slow to start with and struggled to get their heads around what was going on, but have been really good since then. Evie wears a skirt, uses the girls’ toilets and goes swimming with the girls. They all get changed in private so that hasn’t been a problem.

“Her classmates don’t have any issue with Evie, she’s always been one of the girls as far as they are concerned and now that’s just been formalised.

“This is just who Evie is, she’s my child, I love her and I’m so proud of her. I feel she was born trans, that it’s something that happens in the womb and no-one has any control over it. This isn’t something me or my husband can simply tell her to stop doing, as although she was born physically male, her gender identity is clearly female and that’s who she is.

“If she does change her mind and wants to go back to living as a boy in a few years then that would be great, as it would save her a lot of hardship. But as it stands I cannot imagine how that would ever happen.

“I know the future may be difficult for Evie, but I also know that someone from Mermaids will have been there before us, got through it and will help us to get through it too. Their support is so essential for families like ours. Mermaids mean we are never on our own.”
**

Lottapianos · 09/07/2020 07:57

Jesus Christ, that Mermaids story is so incredibly depressing. It should have been 'my 2 year old son adored dolls and princess dresses and carrying a handbag. So we bought him some dolls and a dress and he loved them. Some family members told me to force him to play with stereotypical boy toys but I told them to get a grip. The end'

Instead they're so glad and grateful that they found Mermaids and realised their child is trans. Dear god, that poor child. When did people become so STUPID?!

ValancyRedfern · 09/07/2020 08:06

That story breaks my heart. They 'allowed' Evie to have 'girls toys' at the age of 4?!?!

FantaOra · 09/07/2020 08:09

it’s something that happens in the womb

That terrible Mermaids story repeats this rubbish.

And why would a mother say this unless they were rigidly sexist?

make a beeline for the aisle with all the dolls and girls toys and get very upset when I told her they weren’t for her.

They are looking forward to halting this boys puberty and removing his penis because he wants to play with dolls

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 09/07/2020 08:09

My response exactly, @Lottapianos. Strikingly similar to Susie Green's own story.

What seems to happen is:

  • Parent has fixed ideas about what child's personality, toy and clothing preferences should be, based on child's sex
  • Parent observes with horror that tiny child is not developing on expected lines - 'boy likes dolls' or 'girl wants short hair' horror!
  • Parent attempts to force child to behave more stereotypically, often egged on by family members/friends/religious community
  • Child becomes deeply unhappy
  • Parent worried, may seek medical advice, but does not grasp that actually there is nothing wrong with child
  • Parent takes to internet and discovers concept of trans child
  • Parent 'realises' that this is the answer - child is not a problematic gender nonconforming girl/boy, who may (God forbid) grow up to be gay and/or is on the autistic spectrum, but has been born in the wrong body! This is a medical issue with a medical solution! Hallelujah!
  • Parent puts child on path to become lifelong medical patient.

How? Why? Wouldn't you expect that even if the parent swallows the born-in-the-wrong-body narrative, that highly educated and trained HCPs, psychologists, social workers and teachers would be saying 'Hang on a moment ...'

Lottapianos · 09/07/2020 08:12

'Strikingly similar to Susie Green's own story.'

Yes! All seems to start with thinking that your 2 year old boy is gay because of what he likes to play with Hmm

Kantastic · 09/07/2020 08:26

It would be very interesting to know the sex breakdown by age of the children Mermaids "helps."

Anyone else expect that it would be predominantly boys at very young ages (because boys who like dresses are much more worrying to homophobic parents than girls who like trucks) and somewhere around puberty age it would switch to being majority girls?

Do they release these numbers?

Siablue · 09/07/2020 08:35

Why couldn’t she have just let her child have a princess dress? Why do they have to be trans to be allowed to play with the toys they want. It is clear that she put the idea that he might be a girl into her child’s head.

MotherMorph · 09/07/2020 09:03

My Dsis had (by her own choice) short hair for most of our childhood. She was often referred to as "lad" or "son" by people that didnt know her. She wasnt particularly tomboy-ish but didnt wear dresses or skirts. Now she is an adult she has waist length hair and her favourite colour is pink, even her wedding dress was pink.

TheSingingKettle49 · 09/07/2020 09:08

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g That mermaids story is so sad. I know of two little boys who liked to dress up in their sisters princess dresses and play with prams and other ‘girly’ toys (well I know more than two, but two who were very very interested in ‘girls‘ things whereas the others were interested in ‘boys things too) one of them even used to say “I’m a girl” and all his parents did was say “that’s nice dear” and let him get on with it, there was no assumption he was gay or trans he just liked what he liked, he didn’t know it was ‘wrong’. One is now married to a woman with a child and the other is a perfectly normal teenage boy.

And of the gay men I know, many were not stereotypically gay children, they support football teams, like video games, aren’t neat and clean or flamboyant but they’re sexually attracted to men, that’s it.

I honestly do think if anyone is taking their children to GIDS before puberty then social services need to be involved.

Deliriumoftheendless · 09/07/2020 09:11

Hmm my child regularly makes a beeline for the most expensive toys and I have to tell her they’re not for her, as I can’t afford them.

Can I have a support group and a crowd funder so she can be her authentic rich self? 🤔

MotherMorph · 09/07/2020 09:18

Anyone else expect that it would be predominantly boys at very young ages (because boys who like dresses are much more worrying to homophobic parents than girls who like trucks) and somewhere around puberty age it would switch to being majority girls?

I'm interested in this, in that, it's been accepted for generations that some girls are tomboys, and no one really bats an eyelid, people think they might "grow out of it" ...which some probably do....(and often seen as a positive thing if a girl can fix things or is interested in mechanics, or male dominated sports etc) but it seems way more of a problem to some people if a boy doesnt fit gender stereo types (I'm not sure why boys having stereotypical female traits like being sensitive, creative, nuturing etc is not embraced in the same way females breaking stereotypical boundaries is?)

I remember a few years ago adverts encouraging girls/women to join the military.
But I dont think I've ever seen a campaign to create more equality encouraging boys/men to become carers, nurses, health visitors etc

Lottapianos · 09/07/2020 09:43

'one of them even used to say “I’m a girl” and all his parents did was say “that’s nice dear”'

Well of course - like any sane parent would

This is all so deeply rooted in homophobia. These geniuses who decide their 2 year old boy is gay because he likes princesses or whatever must think that all gay men strut around wearing heels and pink feather boas all the time Hmm

UppaMonaghBypass · 09/07/2020 09:44

I'm not a perfect person, and I've many huge mistakes in my life, but after reading that story, I am very pleased that I am not the sort of person who reacts with sickening horror at the notion that a boy may like pink.

They walk amongst us.

UppaMonaghBypass · 09/07/2020 09:45

And not only that, but who feel the only answer is to mutilate and enforce infertility on one's child