Munroe Bergdorf

[ripples101]

I am trans.

I was a follower of Munroe Bergdorf’s Instagram.

Munroe wrote a post about JK Rowling, calling her a dangerous woman to the trans community. Munroe stayed something along the lines of

“JKR is a dangerous cisgendered, white woman who is causing harm”

I replied to this post, asking why Munroe felt it necessary to mention JK Rowing’s racial identity.

I wasn’t Abusive. I just felt that it wasn’t necessary, in regards to what Munroe was being critical of, to mention JK Rowling’s ethnicity.

Within minutes my post was deleted and I was blocked.

I am trans, and Munroe has silenced me.

So it seems nothing can be questioned. Any intent to ask a question, or to strike up debate, will be met with being silenced.

This is fast turning into propaganda. This is fast turning into thought crime. This is fast turning into silencing. This is fast turning into something it should never have been.

When a trans person isn’t even able to question another trans person, what chance do “people who belong to sex that menstruate”* have?

• Christ, I don’t even feel like I can use the word women here without being controversial.

I am so sorry for people to whom I thought I identified alongside (trans people) who are doing this to you. I feel sick and ashamed of what I am, because of people who are representing me.

I feel like I literally have no space left. And I can’t help but feel that a lot of biological woman are feeling the same way. And you have so much more to lose than I ever will, so I simply can’t imagine how this is making you all feel.

This absolutely happens to some women. Some their whole lives and some for a portion of it.

And some women attract other kinds of attention for their looks that can be just as alarming and intimidating as bullying or mocking for being unattractive. Many women have dealt with both, many even from the same person within the space of five minutes. Almost all women have dealt with it from a very young age.

What it seems to come down to is that if you define privilege in terms of actual material and social disadvantages imposed on a particular class of humans then women have no privileges over transwomen, at least not that anyone here has been able to name, and certainly none that a change of outfit couldn't instantly resolve. But if you define "being a woman" as a privilege then yeah, we're super privileged

Kind of, yeah, as some still seem to think by privilege were meaning what type of car you have or have a big house or something, but all me and another poster was saying (well, I was, anyway, apologies if other wasn't) is that it's not a material privilege - it's the fact that it's a biological privilege - even though half the time it never bloody feels like that, remind me this time next month lol.
I completely agree that women can be and are abused for their female bodies but also femininity and womanhood is a privilege that gets taken for granted,
That's what privilege were meaning.

Trans women have the choice to become fathers and many of them take advantage of it.

Come on. Think this through. The trans woman has to find a biological woman to procreate with. This biological woman must be happy for the trans woman to retain their male anatomy to make a baby. Do you know any women who would be happy about this arrangement? I don't.

Of course the other alternative is for the trans woman to continue presenting as male and 'trick' a woman into having a baby together. See the trans widows threads.

Not so easy it it?

Straight women definitely have privilege when it comes to babies, lesbians less so and trans women are right at the bottom of the pile.

Ereshkigalangcleg well for starters I don't get strange looks, stares or abuse just for leaving the house. Trans women often do

Er.... SHOW US YET TITS LOVE! SMILE YOU MISERABLE BITCH!

I can use a public changing room or toilet without giving it a second thought. Trans women can't
Depends who’s in/around it. I’ve given quite a few loos a miss in pubs, parks and railway stations because there’s dubious characters hanging round (male) and i don’t want to be followed in and assaulted. I aren’t strong enough to fight off an attack, i can’t outrun anyone and i have an unrepairable security issue. I can be raped.

Someone upthread said trans women are more privileged as they don't have periods and cannot give birth. (.....) Women have the choice about whether to become biological mothers or not, trans women don't
We in the western world have access to contraception so we can chose. (Actually that is under attack in the US due to the private healthcare system) I had the massive privilege of getting pregnant and nearly dying form a condition that only affects pregnant women. My husband became a father at no personal risk. I’d have preferred his job, tbh.

being on the receiving end of that envy is most definitely not a privilege, it's frightening.

I had to echo this again. So well said. This re-imagining of "privilege" has been leveraged to go from "you have something we want" to a self-righteous "you OWE us." Combined with the ever changing discourse on "listening to trans people", "you OWE us" has morphed into "you owe us whatever we are currently demanding, ciswomen" and it is extremely, extremely scary.

And you're meant to feel like you're a bad person for finding it crazy.

Don't.

My other problem with this idea is that people like Paris Lees, biological male socialised as male, can use it to dismiss our own concerns:

This is kind of my problem with the debate around street attention. It's part of a culture that infantilizes women and teaches them to be constantly afraid. I wasn't brought up that way, and I don't feel frightened when some spunky dude comes and talks to me. I hate this idea that all men are rapists-in-waiting and that all women are victims-in-waiting. It's patronizing and doesn't help anyone. Many women are sexual and like to look and feel and be seen sexual. I'm one of those women....

...And men, for the record, I haven't spoken to any woman yet who likes being told, "I'd like to fuck you up the ass" as you drive past her in the street. So stop it with that, you shitheads. I just wish we could make a distinction between harassment like this and harmless fun.

Most women know how quickly the "harmless fun" can turn nasty if not acknowledged in the correct way. We are not props in men's lives, and Paris has no idea.

www.vice.com/en_us/article/gq8v93/i-love-wolf-whistles-and-catcalls-am-i-a-bad-feminist

Periods and the ability to become pregnant are absolutely not privilege over transwomen in any way, shape or form. They may be a privilege over women who have medical conditions that mean they can’t do those things, because ALL women are oppressed because of the possibility of menstruation and childbearing, even though not all women will experience those things.

I meant to write scary, but crazy works too, or crazy-making at least for those of us on the receiving end.

@SapphosRock: maternal death rates. Testing of medicines and other treatments on male bodies as the default. Lack of research and believing women in terms of pain, particularly around the reproductive organs. Vulnerability to unwanted pregnancy.

This is not privilege. To be recognised accurately as 'lesser' in a hierarchical system is not privilege.

Come on, think this through

Please don't be so condescending, you are in no position to be after the ridiculous comments you have made on this thread. Many transwomen do become fathers, so despite all the theoretical obstacles you are throwing in their way, it is quite clear that in actual practice many transwomen have that choice and have taken advantage of it.

don't get laughed at for your looks or stared at every time you leave the house

the hell we're not. I was considered an ugly girl (I was doing female wrong, I guess) and was bullied every day for it. Every day. One day walking home from school I was stopped by a group of boys who held me in the middle of their circle as each spat on me, over and over. My hair, my face, my coat, down my neck... Where is my fucking privilege?

..some still seem to think by privilege were meaning what type of car you have or have a big house or something..

Fuck. Me.

I genuinely don't know what to make of that.

because ALL women are oppressed because of the possibility of menstruation and childbearing, even though not all women will experience those things.

YY. They are all women's biological reality. Even if they are lacking, which generally causes its own problems.

This biological woman must be happy for the trans woman to retain their male anatomy to make a baby. Do you know any women who would be happy about this arrangement? I don't

It seems Twitter is full of this type of person who describes themselves as a lesbian who would happily date and have sex with a trans woman. They’re oh so inclusive in their tweets, so I don’t see what the difficulty would be?

The trans woman has to find a biological woman to procreate with. This biological woman must be happy for the trans woman to retain their male anatomy to make a baby. Do you know any women who would be happy about this arrangement? I don't.

Hooray! You get it!

And I was considered a pretty girl, and men and boys want to hurt and punish you for that too. There is no privilege in being positioned on men's fuckability matrix, regardless of which particular position they're slotting you into.

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

I'm with Home on listen to other voices. Not just here. Not just the "GC" ones. Listen to both sides of the "discussion" for a more balanced view.

I assume the quotes around 'discussion' are because the other 'side' are the ones with all the rape threats, death threats, mocking of victims of sexual and domestic abuse and telling them that their reactions to that abuse makes them transphobes, posting porn on twitter threads with children's artwork etc. etc. right? The ones that openly admit to trolling MN?

The 'balanced view'.

I've listened to plenty of voices. And tried to listen to a good deal more who got banned from MN for breaking talk guidelines on personal attacks. I don't post on twitter because I don't want to attract the sort of abuse I just mentioned but I do read.

Why else do you think I ended up on FWR? It's because I listened. Because I educated myself.

To be fair, it's not just FWR that has taught me a lot. The relationships board is an eye-opener into male behaviour.

MB is a downright unpleasant person regardless of the name and pronouns they give themselves.

Not surprised that even trans people are thrown under that particular bus for speaking out against some actions/words of the TRAs. You generally have to be 'with them' 100% or you are just as bad as all us vagina havers

BaronessBrighterThanYou I do get it. And as much as there is an insistence on here that lesbians are being persuaded to sleep with trans women all the time, cotton ceiling blah blah. In reality does anyone actually know a lesbian who has had a baby with a trans woman? Any reports in the media even?

I wasn't brought up that way, and I don't feel frightened when some spunky dude comes and talks to me. I hate this idea that all men are rapists-in-waiting and that all women are victims-in-waiting. It's patronizing and doesn't help anyone. Many women are sexual and like to look and feel and be seen sexual. I'm one of those women...

I agree with that though, I feel the same (apart from the looking sexual bit, maybe when I was younger but can't be arsed now!) - doesn't mean I can't empathise and hear those who don't feel that way, do always feel scared or threatened, as we all have different experiences and opinions.

does anyone actually know a lesbian who has had a baby with a trans woman? Any reports in the media even?

Amanda Jette Knox.

What, she's a lesbian by your standards isn't she? There are thousands of others like her.

Sapphos, but what about all those lesbians on Twitter who say they’re inclusive of trans women and don’t feel “forced”? They are available for impregnation aren’t they?

Or are you saying they’re just lying and/or kidding themselves and/or bullshitting to make themselves look inclusive?

Straight women definitely have privilege when it comes to babies, lesbians less so and trans women are right at the bottom of the pile.

This is another area that I take issue with. You are assuming that all women can get pregnant and carry a child through to full term. You are also assuming that all women are in a position to 'get pregnant'. I have many single women friends who are straight and would have love to have a child but did not find a partner to do this with.

On the flip side, there are many disadvantages to being able to fall pregnant and women are put in dangerous and abusive positions because of it and are, all too often, discriminated against because of this.

Sapphos, in your allocation of privilege, I feel that you are making some very broad generalisations.

@TheSingingKettle49

Periods and the ability to become pregnant are absolutely not privilege over transwomen in any way, shape or form. They may be a privilege over women who have medical conditions that mean they can’t do those things, because ALL women are oppressed because of the possibility of menstruation and childbearing, even though not all women will experience those things.

This bears repeating.

I'm a woman who can't have children and went through the pain of infertility.

A transwoman on this board (I can name names but they deleted all their posts) told me that my infertility wasn't as sad as theirs because at least I had a womb. He'd fathered children.

The ability to be pregnant is not a privilege over transwomen. Femininity is not a privilege. And I'm shocked that so-called feminists are saying this.