A personal plight

[paxillin]

I have a 12 year old daughter who has now decided to be “they”. She never much conformed, she used to be the one girl pirate at the princesses and pirates party aged 4. I do not worry about that. I do seek to protect her from irreversible changes. I am not myself British, so I can leave the country with her (and my career, friends and life) if I need to. What can I do (if anything) to protect her from any irreversible changes? Can I protect her (if needed from herself)?

Im really not sure that leaving the country is necessary here. I'm sure there will be many knowledgeable people coming on here shortly to advise.
Im very GC and secretly this would bug the hell out of me. But I would keep it to myself, and be very gentle and loving. Adolescence is and always has been a time of great turmoil and finding of one's identity and likes and dislikes. So actually your DD is really very normal in this respect, but using terminology of today. It may well be a short phase or something more.
I would take the gentle questioning angle and just get to know why she's feeling she needs to do this.

I fear she has developed an extreme view of what is is to be male and female and she does not fit what she perceives females are.

I would be thinking of discussing social media then assuming that's where she has picked up on the stereotypes and so on. Not in a kind of lecturing way, but just looking at the type of people she's engaged with and a discussion that social media is not a real representation of actual life.

Does she have any particular interest that you can look for examples of women not conforming to gender norms?

The role models are youbtube gamers, LouHotel. It is a male world. She games. Few girls do.

Blunt question here (sorry) - Do you think she’s gay?

I would try to bombard her as much as possible with strong lesbian role models who are fiercely female. Try to break those norms. Show her she can be a butch, mannish lesbian woman and still an awesome woman.

I am fairly certain she is gay. I just don't think it need s fixing.

Of course it doesn’t! Where did I suggest it did? (I mean that as a genuine question by the way as I didn’t mean to imply that and am mortified I did!)

I worry because she seems to think "girl" cannot be her,

No, I didn't mean to imply you did. I worry she thinks it needs fixing.

That’s what I was trying to get at, really. I can imagine being a 12 year old girl who has had it pressed upon her for years that boys like pirates, football, cars (I realise these might not be her specific interests but as a generalisation) and now she is probably in the thick of puberty with feelings she doesn’t understand fully and she’s surrounded by a not-subtle transgender push.

Does she know your feelings towards it?

My daughter is not old enough for any of this, but in this situation I would be watching and waiting. Trying to show her role models who are female and gender non conforming, but not part of the 'they' crew. It's difficult when they're in to gaming because it's so cult like online. Does she have any hobbies outside of gaming?

She doesn't need fixing, she does need to realise that whilst there are a lot of bigots in this world who like to force people to behave in a certain way, there are also a lot of people who don't fit gender boxes.

There have been some really good comments/threads recently from people with experience of this (either personally themselves and feeling this way or with young people they love and care about) with discussion and advice. I’ll try to have a look through and find some for you.

while it does sound concerning I also think that 'nonbinary' is quite a soft option....you get to be different but without burning any bridges...I would just do as others have suggested and keep making sure she is exposed to as many strong unconventional female role models as possible, including lesbians and ideally these would be in real life as well as in books etc. The gaming thing....I assume there are some feminist gamers/games...but am too ancient to know anything about that!
does she have friends who are doing similar? the role of social contagion is widely observed. It might help if you think of it as a teen style like goth or whatever. As long as she is not proposing to harm her body or make any other difficult to reverse change, I think tolerance and gentle questioning should be your most obvious response (with the heavy dose of GC role models just happening to be on your shelves/screens/at your table )

Does this thread help

12 yr old DD. Gender Dysphoria, sudden announcement www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3953878-12-yr-old-DD-Gender-Dysphoria-sudden-announcement

Yeah basically what StillWeRise said.

With the gaming, I don't do online gaming but I am a gamer and I am a SAHM mum of 3 so all sorts of women game which might help to know.

Gender stereotyping needs to be fixed, that's all. I am so sick of people telling me I'm not a typical woman because i like beer, footbal, pizza and hard-core sci-fi. On the other hand i like dresses, heels, lipsticks and cocktails...
The Pink/Blue thing has gone way too far and that is the root of the problem. What's wrong with a little girl being a pirate? with a little boy liking the feel of wearing a soft, floaty dress? liking both at the same time?

Something that does sometimes get lost in our more modern times is that being gay is a process that takes some coming to terms with. That’s not because it needs fixing or is wrong, of course, but just because anything that’s different to the norm does.

Being in a sexual minority is a process and there are often negative feelings associated with this. Feelings of anger, denial, pride, shame, even feeling dirty - are normal. I think some young gay people are worried about sharing these feelings in case others think they are homophobic or in case they are impatiently brushed off under a ‘well there is nothing wrong with being gay!’ sort of response which is true but not helpful when you’re struggling. I’m not suggesting you do this obviously OP: just that the way the world is at the moment it’s actually quite hard to question yourself!

Being trans is comparatively easy, from a 12 year olds perspective. You don’t need difficult conversations about who you fancy or have to worry about your mates giving you a side-eye in the changing rooms: it’s an accident of nature, wrong body, simples.

I think understanding this - I could be wrong, I’m not 12! - might help, though. Being gay doesn’t need fixing or changing but she might just need a little longer to digest it.

How does she feel about the world of gaming? Does she recognise that it's a space where women get tons of abuse? (Even if, I hope, she's not yet aware of the specific of that abuse.) Discussing that - without linking it explicitly to her decision to go 'non-binary' - might be a good starting point.

There are also some interesting kids' books that have been published in the past few years that focus on girl gamers. e.g. www.girlcodethebook.com/

The role models are youbtube gamers, LouHotel. It is a male world. She games. Few girls do.

Having been a gamer and knowing what the community is like I would not let a 12 year old girl anywhere near it now.

Dh and I gamed a lot in our 20s and early 30s and it was incredible how adult it was. I always gamed under a male name to avoid the sexualised interactions and sexist attitudes and abuse. I was considerably older than most playing and was very aware of how other players gave you more respect it you were a guy. I did tell players I got to know and knew respected me in time and in fairness they understood why I did it.

Dh is very open minded and not much shocked him but what happened to 14 year olds in that community and how parents didn't know what was going on staggered even him. He often pulled up other players for their behaviour.

The real world is very different to the online world though. She shouldn't be doing 'they' because ultimately you can't escape your physical appearance in the real world and you are always going to be treated as female whether you like it or not at some point.

She sounds like she is blurring the boundaries between real life and the gaming world here as she's too immature to deal with that adult world.

There is no way in hell I'd let a daughter of mine near it now, without me fully aware of everything (I'd literally insist on playing with her).

There have been scandals reported in the press just this week about the sexism and sexual abuse in the gaming world.

Tread carefully. I've seen enough first hand that would shock most people. Sexual harassment of friends and stalking of them via friends, family and their workplace. Police involved in more than one incident.

She feels the word of gaming is not for girls, @notyourhandmaid. Which is part of the issue.

To be blunt about it, the world of gaming isn't for 12 year olds. Boys or girls.