A personal plight

[paxillin]

I have a 12 year old daughter who has now decided to be “they”. She never much conformed, she used to be the one girl pirate at the princesses and pirates party aged 4. I do not worry about that. I do seek to protect her from irreversible changes. I am not myself British, so I can leave the country with her (and my career, friends and life) if I need to. What can I do (if anything) to protect her from any irreversible changes? Can I protect her (if needed from herself)?

Oh and FWIW I absolutely agree that giving your daughter female gamer and lesbian role models and showing that girls can like anything they want to etc is absolutely the right first step. The majority of trans people and allies will agree that there is a huge difference between being trans and being gender non-conforming (ie liking stuff that the is traditionally associated with her opposite gender). But unfortunately there are lots and lots of people online who - through ignorance or malice - behave as if the two are one and the same, and there are definitely young people being led to believe they must need to change gender because they don't conform with the stereotypes associated with their gender. If this is the case with your daughter steering them in that direction will hopefully help. If they are indeed suffering from gender dysphoria that's a different matter but that's still a step away yet.

Why can't gaming and game making and music making be full of incredibly strong women and girls?

She is quite physical and does a lot of sports. Not now of course, but I hope that will be a feature soon enough again. It didn't come up so much, but bmx or skate boarding will throw up much the same issues before long. It doesn't much feature in preteens, because they are more mixed in their pursuits.

@peachgreen

It must be a really difficult and distressing time for you, and for her.

If you're not doing so already can I - gently - suggest you also seek advice from a forum or site which doesn't have majority gender critical perspective? I'm not saying here is wrong and there will be right but it's better to have a balanced view and it may also give you more insight into how your daughter is potentially feeling. A forum with such a heavy bias is by its very nature going to contain a lot of scaremongering and manipulation of facts - and of course that goes for the "other side" as well, which is why it's important to seek a balanced view. You may have done this already, in which case please forgive the unnecessary suggestion.

Personally I'd be inclined to be affirming at this point. Changing pronouns to "they" may feel awkward at first but you'll soon get used to it and doing so without a fight will give you more ground to have a say should they want to start down a more medical route in the future (which they very well may have absolutely no desire to!).

I'm not sure where to start in response to this.

Perhaps by dispelling the myth that this forum thrives on scaremongering and manipulating facts.

The long standing posters on here focus on facts and scientific evidence and damn well do their homework to understand the nuances of his issue.

Should you choose to do some research or even read a few threads you'd know this to be true.

Many of us are horrified by the way children who are identifying as trans are treated.

They are being put on a pathway to lifelong medication and sterility using drugs that have significant side effects (loss of bone density, risk of strokes/heart failure) in favour of therapy to come to terms with their dysphoria (and note that over 90% of children desist with an approach of therapy based supportive waiting compared to 100% who transition with an affirmation based approach through the use of puberty blocking medication).

Many female children identify as trans to escape the pressure of womanhood.

What they need is to be equipped with tools to deal with those pressures, not lied to that they can identify out of them.

I do think the point with the outdoors stuff has been missed a bit, tbh.

When you feel physically strong - when you can climb mountains or fly over jumps on a horse in full control of a big, powerful animal, or swim the channel or whatever it is you choose to do, you are not rejecting your femininity but revelling in it. It makes you love your body and love what it can do and that gives you a respect for it.

If you want a good female sport. With a higher than average ratio of fairly butch gay Women take a look at rollerderby. It is a bit woke at the moment, so I’d hesitate to recommend getting involved in person (and as a really close contact sport it’s on hold anyway) but there’s loads on YouTube.

@paxillin

She is quite physical and does a lot of sports. Not now of course, but I hope that will be a feature soon enough again. It didn't come up so much, but bmx or skate boarding will throw up much the same issues before long. It doesn't much feature in preteens, because they are more mixed in their pursuits.

There is a women and girls only day at the skatepark near us (when it’s open) which is full of non-conforming teens and young women. Well worth looking into similar in the months to come.

I would really recommend you find ways to keep the physical activity going, sadly, puberty makes things especially awkward for female people and lots give up sports they previously enjoyed due to the changing social dynamics and newly unfamiliar bodies.
Try and offer new opportunities if the old ones are no longer appealing (or no longer available).

It’s very easy for the current generation to get sucked into online life and in my observations it compounds the sense of disassociation from one’s physical self.
This goes for all online life, it’s not a gaming specific thing.

Elissa Steamer is a pretty cool GNC role model (albeit my age, so maybe too ancient for a 12 year old 😂)

www.shackedmag.com/2018/06/timeless-areas-screening.html?m=1

@MellOhDee

I do think the point with the outdoors stuff has been missed a bit, tbh.

When you feel physically strong - when you can climb mountains or fly over jumps on a horse in full control of a big, powerful animal, or swim the channel or whatever it is you choose to do, you are not rejecting your femininity but revelling in it. It makes you love your body and love what it can do and that gives you a respect for it.

❤️

Getting better at something through practise and repetition is good for body and mind - it doesn’t really matter what it is, just that it’s enjoyable and physical.

In my experience, the girls who struggle with gender distress are often a bit socially awkward and not very interested in team sports, but solo or small group activity, without the pressure of competition, can widen social horizons, improve self esteem and give them pride in what their bodies can do, rather than focusing on how their bodies appear to others.

A physical instrument, such as playing the drums, can function similarly.

Of course gaming is for girls. My 16yr old DD has gamed online for years. Right now she is playing Sea of Thieves (it’s a pirate game) with a female friend and trying not to sink their 11th ship.
OP, your DD needs to find a group of girl friends that are interested in the same things she is. Luckily, we’ve lived in three countries and moved seven times while my DD grew up so she has friends from all over she has gathered that are girls and game.

Quite a few useful pointers and links, thank you to all of you who understand kids are more complicated than "turn it off". I do fret.

Of course you fret, you love her!

Red and I were a bit brutal with you, for sure, but it’s because we have both seen this kind of damage first hand, albeit from two completely different angles.

Do give this thread a read when you get a chance, you’ll likely see the pattern emerging for yourself. Towards the end I posted something that I worked out through many, many late nights of reading, combined with previous experience (my eldest is 20 and was a terrible, terrible teen, for totally different reasons, but the tools that got him through actually worked for my gender distressed step daughter too) - they are long established child psychology/child development principles and while the example I give is specific, you will likely be able to apply the same principles in a way that works for your family, because no one knows your daughter the way you do ❤️

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3953878-12-yr-old-DD-Gender-Dysphoria-sudden-announcement

It is strange, she is aware the world of gaming isn't for women as it stands. My own reaction has always been, well, it isn't for me then. Hers is different. Her reaction is, she isn't right and the gamers are.

And the other option is that rather than conforming to the gaming world, women can work to change the gaming world and make it more suitable for women.

But if all the women transition to blend in themselves, there will be no women left to fight the fight, and no women left to fight it for.

It's sad that she feels she needs to change herself as opposed to changing the world. With her interest in programming, she could do something really special in the gaming industry.

I would encourage her to mix with other girls interested in tech and remind her that if she has to overhaul her whole identity to fit into a group, the group doesn't sound like a very tolerant place to be.

I guess she's too young for many of the classic lesbian movies/shows, but I would try to find some lesbian things to watch with her (for fun, obviously, not as a lesson!) - it might help to broaden her view of what a lesbian looks like. The US teen show Faking It is pretty good for a positive depiction of lesbianism, IMO.

It's sad that she feels she needs to change herself as opposed to changing the world. With her interest in programming, she could do something really special in the gaming industry.

I'd absolutely reinforce this point.

I'm in the IT industry and it's absolutely male dominated.

That said more and more women are breaking through and being promoted to senior tech roles.

From a coding perspective there is absolutely no sex bias in the sense I've never looked at code and been able to determine the sex of who wrote it.

I can tell if it's good/clumsy/elegant/inefficient etc but nothing about chromosomes of the author.

A note on the physical side - being an athlete wasn’t in and of itself a ‘cure’ for dd2, but it became an intellectual question about fairness and equality. I asked her if she would be comfortable competing against her male team mates for medals. I’m a fan of fairly robust questioning as if a child wants my support to pretend they were born a different sex and potentially render themselves sterile by taking off-label drugs, I want them to actually think it through. And persuade me. I talk a LOT about the pressures that girls and women face in our society. And fully ramp up the whole ‘gender is a load of bollocks, stereotypes are balls, and you can do absolutely anything you want to whatever sex you are.
On a slightly different note - has she started her periods? When dd2 realised the full horror of being a member of the sex class that menstruates () that was pretty much the final straw. She’s more or less over it now, but that was absolutely peak rejection of her sexed body. Puberty is rough af, and if you can get through that, you’re pretty home and dry. Dd2 says she’s bi and is also a coder btw.
Keep talking and expand her horizons away from sexist stereotypical tripe as much as you can. And read up on ROGD. And ignore posters who suggest affirmation only models. Dangerous, one track pathways.

Nobody is suggesting affirmation only. I'm suggesting choosing your battles so it's clear that what you have an issue with is medical treatment. Which I assume is the case for most parents. If calling my daughter "they" made her happy, I'd do it (while still providing strong female role models and continuing to emphasise that gender roles are bollocks and women can like and do whatever they want to do). That way she wouldn't dismiss me as a "bigot" and would be more likely to listen to my opinion should she want to pursue a more medicalised path. That doesn't mean you can't question WHY she wants to be called "they" (as the OP is clearly doing, and sensitively by the sounds of it) and try and address some of those issues.

@paxillin

Just spoke to dh who is into gaming. He definitely recommends the following;

pelvic gaming(who is awesome)
Lucajin (has a little bad language but is very funny)
MasaeAnela (plays classic games)
PressHearttocontinue(who is a new mum and a streamer)
Kinsey Burke

All are women and have a really positive attitude to gaming and being female without being 'feminine' if you know what I mean.

As for online abuse, I know that this doesn't solve the problem but I know when I gamed online I had a gender neutral name and muted my Mic so people couldn't tell I was female. It significantly reduced sexist abuse/harassment. Also my mum let me play online but only with real life friends. I would recommend that to your daughter as its also a good way for you to keep her safe/monitor online communications.

I think giving your girl positive role models, almost 'counter programming' will help. Also teach her good online safety and reiterate boundaries. Encourage her to come to you for support, try and be open with her.

I wish you both luck. This is a long and scary road for you both. Keep communication open that seems key.

Some useful links on this thread already, for the coding I'd start with quentin's and I'd add:

UK group:
codefirstgirls.org.uk/

COllection of international links including Ada and PyLadies:
learntocodewith.me/posts/13-places-women-learn-code/

Organisations like MeetUp for whom girls' coding training/groups is one section of their events:
www.meetup.com/Girls-Code-Learn-to-Code-with-Other-Girls-and-Women/

In addition to startrek's links you might want to look at Yogscast - not female specific but when I saw it had women involved and was reasonably age-appropriate (but have a look at it first).

OP it would be helpful to know the games your daughter is into at the moment - not all are equally problematic and each will have different subsidiary groups which people may be able to suggest.

Some of them I really wouldn't let a young teen into but what's done is done so I'd be inclined to focus on how best to manage the situation for the specific games she plays.