A personal plight

[paxillin]

I have a 12 year old daughter who has now decided to be “they”. She never much conformed, she used to be the one girl pirate at the princesses and pirates party aged 4. I do not worry about that. I do seek to protect her from irreversible changes. I am not myself British, so I can leave the country with her (and my career, friends and life) if I need to. What can I do (if anything) to protect her from any irreversible changes? Can I protect her (if needed from herself)?

Well having seen how much its fucked up some people I know I'm not prepared to pander to people saying that she should be allowed to continue when she's showing signs of distress from doing so.

Even coming across it elsewhere is not as immersive and as addictive as gaming.

I will not mince my words on this.

I think we’ve noticed! but is it actually helping with the issue paxillin is posting about, honestly?

You aren’t doing parenting ALL wrong, just this bit of it.

Most of us are doing this bit wrong, tbf, because the technology has changed so much since we were young and because kids are wiley. There is another thread elsewhere on MN where someone’s 14 year daughter has mostly likely been used as a ‘money mule’. The thread is full of parents saying they’ve never heard of it, but police have been warning schools for a while.
Shit happens when you aren’t looking - if you absolutely will not stop your daughter online gaming then restrict the amount of time she does it each day and always play the game with her.

OP - if might not feel like it, but you're getting some tough love from Red and Du.

The online gaming culture can be brutal
and rife with people pretending to be someone they are not to pursue an agenda.

I appreciate it's hard in lockdown but I honestly think you have two choices if you want to help her.

Ban the online games or as Red suggested play them with her.

I'd actually advocate the latter as it will allow you to better understand what we are saying and provide the opportunity to open a dialogue with her about it (I only suggest this because she's OG'ing already - ideally she wouldn't be at that age - and banning her might make her more angry and reinforce her current mindset).

Well, she programs and makes music online (as well as in the real world). My question was not how to I clip her wings doing that. My question was (a) how to help her understand it is not a male pursuit and (b) how can I protect her from people who tell her it is.

I am fully aware there is a mountain-out-of-a-molehill philosophy. I do have a way out (leaving the UK) if needed, but I wondered if there is a way to talk short of that. We do belong here, in London. I am not after parenting advice about her gaming, how fucking patronising.

Problem with tough love is it can make people feel berated and bullied when it’s support and advice they need.

She will be resentful and that will drive a wedge between pax and her DD at a time when the two need to be as close as possible.

Kids need boundaries, adolescents more than younger kids. You can’t just be their mate, I had to do 6 months of 3x weekly multi systemic therapy to learn this, because I wanted to be the cool mum.
Too many boundaries are also bad, ideally they need to be metaphorically fenced in on three sides, with one side open to explore.

The three best ways to resolve an adolescents gender distress are:

A) cut down their online time
B) give them more attention, preferably 1-2-1
C) get them doing something physical, outside of possible, as much as is humanly possible.

Leaving the U.K. won’t make any difference because she will still (presumably) be online wherever you go.
Trying to identify out of the shit bits of being female is rife amongst teens in the U.K.,USA, Australia, Northern and Central Europe, it’s not
just a London thing.

With all respect moving won't help - unless you're planning to move to an internet free zone .

There are a number of lesbian gamers out there but I'm hesitant in naming them because frankly I don't think their content is suitable for a 12 year old (it's not that it's inappropriate, rather the games they play/review are not suitable imho for her age).

Hi op
I agree your DD needs to see some women in gaming/programming. Unfortunately most of the girl gamers on YouTube seem to be girlfriends and play up to the dumb girl gamer stereotype. Drives me demented.
My daughter watches Loserfruit on YouTube who is a female gamer so she could try that.
For programming, theres lots out there to encourage girls into programming.

Stemettes stemettes.org/girls/

Robogals robogals.org/

Cyberfirst girls www.ncsc.gov.uk/cyberfirst/girls-competition

I think when she finds other like minded girls she will feel a lot better about herself. And they are out there.

Some interesting links there, thank you.

I agree she needs to find some like minded girl gamers/ music makers. When she sees that they are out there she might not feel the odd one out.

Ignore the patronising posts on here and just listen to the ones who get it.

Unfortunately being a girl gamer is a bit like being a lesbian on a dating app right now, the actual female ones are out numbered by males who identify as females.

It makes for a massive quagmire of crap because the one message that teen girls really need to hear (that being a woman simply means being female over the age of 18, and it doesn’t dictate anything re: your interests, your career, your clothing choices or your romantic partners) is drowned out by men saying that being a woman is some kind of feminine state of mind.

If you don’t feel particularly feminine (lots of girls don’t) then the overwhelming 2020 messaging is, you aren’t female.

Getting outside and doing physical things works as an antidote because it sites you back in your body, back in the natural world, and away from the virtual where you exist as an avatar.

Yes OP, take her for a walk in the woods that will cure her.

@anon5000

Yes OP, take her for a walk in the woods that will cure her.

Still not read those links huh?

Having a go at each other isn't going to help the OP.

Can we get the thread back on a helpful trajectory please?

@paxillin

I worry because she seems to think "girl" cannot be her,

My 12 year old kid is similar to this and we are doing lots of talking about JK and what's happened and busting gender myths. I also showed her some information about tactics that brainwashers use she has an awareness of what those techniques look like. Mine is a gamer too and she is very aware of that community plus the crappy things the boys already say to her at school.

She's lesbian. I'm trying to find some good lesbian books she can read. I've talked to her about the T aspect of LGB and how that's changing the dynamics. She's also identified two girls in her class who are close friends and identifying as having gender dysmorphia and another friend who is saying she is pansexual as an attention thing after watching Dr Who. Another friend has a daughter who is now a boy who is threatening suicide if they don't get an operation. They are 14. The mother is terrified because the kid is also autistic. They learned about it on the internet.

Education is the only weapon against brainwashing and peer pressure I feel.

I’m trying to think of some really positive lesbian role models. That would be a good starting point, I think.

Also paxillin don’t panic, seriously.

As I said in my first post, when you realise you’re gay it throws everything into turmoil. It doesn’t matter if you grew up in a liberal household and your best friend has two mums and it’s normal. There’s still an element of displacement in a world that TBH is made for those who are straight.

But that process is a long one and once you’ve passed through shame and denial and guilt and fear and self loathing (all normal) there comes pride, where you stand up and say I’m a gay woman, and I’m fabulous as I am.

She’ll be OK.

It might be. Walking in the woods just sounds like it would fix toddler issues. Teens are a tad more complicated than that.

Also to everyone complaining about the gaming it depends what kind of games we are talking about - my kid plays animal crossing, Splatoon, Minecraft and world of Warcraft with me. Whereas my stepkids play fortnight unsupervised.

It must be a really difficult and distressing time for you, and for her.

If you're not doing so already can I - gently - suggest you also seek advice from a forum or site which doesn't have majority gender critical perspective? I'm not saying here is wrong and there will be right but it's better to have a balanced view and it may also give you more insight into how your daughter is potentially feeling. A forum with such a heavy bias is by its very nature going to contain a lot of scaremongering and manipulation of facts - and of course that goes for the "other side" as well, which is why it's important to seek a balanced view. You may have done this already, in which case please forgive the unnecessary suggestion.

Personally I'd be inclined to be affirming at this point. Changing pronouns to "they" may feel awkward at first but you'll soon get used to it and doing so without a fight will give you more ground to have a say should they want to start down a more medical route in the future (which they very well may have absolutely no desire to!).

Was going to add to that, because I have a more open relationship with my kid we talk about the stuff she is doing whereas stepkids mum and dad have no idea what their kids are up to - wily as another poster said.

There is a Broadway musical, Fun Home, which shows the central character, a graphic cartoonist at three stages in her life and coming out. A lot of it can be seen in bits online and there is also the graphic novel it's based on. Here's a link to sample song. Might just be a talking point and if not, it's a good musical anyway. At 12, who knows?

@paxillin

It might be. Walking in the woods just sounds like it would fix toddler issues. Teens are a tad more complicated than that.

It wasn’t me that suggested walking in the woods.

We chose rock climbing, actually. Albeit indoors and now on pause due to Covid. Rock climbing is full of incredibly strong women of all ages, my stepdaughter has seen more inspirational lesbians at rock climbing than have been on the telly or in the news for the last 30 years
Physical activity is only one aspect of a bigger approach though.
My stepdaughter spent almost a year identifying as a boy, but has recently desisted. She also started out by coming out as same sex attracted. It began when she was first subjected to adult male sexual attention, shortly after she turned 13 (she’s a summer baby and this has gone on throughout year 9).
It’s been rough, and a sharp learning curve, but she seems to have gotten through it. Early days though.