"How the 'Karen Meme' Confronts the Violent History of White Womanhood"

[Igneococcus]

This just popped up as a recomendation in Firefox when I open a new tab. I can't fully read it right now because I'm in a meeting any moment now (someone's still sorting out techinical issues), but a first quick scan makes me go "WTF" :

time.com/5857023/karen-meme-history-meaning/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

The "what about the Shaniqa meme" comment makes me wonder if some posters don't realize that the majority of this board is UK based people.

I think they do.

On the other thread re use of 'thug'.

Everyone was saying, it has no racist connotations in the UK, this is a UK website etc

And were still told to stop using it.

The sort of way that some USA people seem to not understand that their history, language usage, etc etc is not applicable to all English speaking nations is probably a different thread. But it's really annoying.

It doesn't take much research to find out Mumsnet is based in the UK.

Or even reading it for 5 mins

Lol, true.

I'm not British, but I lived in the UK for a few years, and it's very clear to me that Mumsnet is NOT American!

In the UK racist white men are called Gammons. Dunno about America

Well, that was the most charitable explanation I could come up with! There are other less charitable interpretations.

For anyone British who might not know "redneck", "hillbilly" and so on have very overt classist implications. I get the distinct impression that "Karen" is not meant to refer to a woman from the same class, so nope, those don't work as equivalents.

I don't really feel much charity tbh. The impulse to adopt American politics and culture as if the world is one big reflection of the US is regressive. It's imperialist thinking - ironically.

Gammon isn't racist white men to my mind.

It's hyper privileged Tories.

I wouldn't call a NF type guy s gammon

I'd call him a dangerous violent racist bastard.

Let's talk about that without these lazy inadequate shorthands.

I know what hillbilly means, the Beverly hillbillies was on when I was young!

Redneck = dukes of hazzard?

I'm not American though.

Agree re cultural imperialism. Different thread probs.

I feel like a lot of Americans (and I'm surrounded by them) genuinely struggle with the concept that they are not the center of the universe and their context is not universal. Bestie, DH, and I are all from different non-US cultures and all experience this on the regular. People get very offended when you point out that something they've just assumed was universal isn't.

Hence the utter refusal to even consider that the word thug does not have racial undertones here.

Why does that happen do you think?

I had no problem accepting that word had a different subtext over there.

Yes, the great American flaw. Critiquing empire while exemplifying empire.

Gammon isn't racist white men to my mind.
It's hyper privileged Tories

I thought it came about because of the "row of gammons" meme on Question Time - red-faced, angry, middle-aged Brexiteers attacking anyone lefty or anti-Brexit on the panel

Let's talk about that without these lazy inadequate shorthands

Well... posters were asking for a male equivalent of Karen and that's the only one that comes to mind

I think the answer, ironically, is imperialism. When you're the most powerful country in the world it's easy not to give a shit about anyone else's context, and to be offended by the idea that whatever shiny idea you may have might not really work in other countries.

Fair enough Binky!

I think the point is

There aren't really these types of names for men.

Women always have to be a type. For men at least. Because we are 2D. Karen, milf, ball breaker, feminazi, sexpot etc etc

We have to be in a box.

They get very confused (IME) when eg pretty blonde with tits is also feminazi. They don't like it. Get uncomfortable and sometimes angry. Confused.

This Karen is just one of those. 2d woman.

Who in many cases men are angry at for complete irrational reasons, and sometimes other women too, because internalized misogyny is a thing. Take the photo of a woman standing at what looks like a food service counter of some kind someone posted above. Why assume she's "waiting to speak to the manager"? Why not assume she's waiting to place her order, or collect it? It's just a cheap shot based on the person making it being annoyed that a woman they don't consider fuckable is existing in public.

Redneck refers to farm labourers, mainly - their necks get red from working bent over in the sun.

I don't know if it's important necessarily that there be a male and female equivalent for every "type" there is some kind of name for. It's interesting to see where there is and isn't though. I can't really think of a female equivalent of redneck, though hillbilly could be a man or woman. Gammon seems to be applied to men only n my experience. I think of them all as including unsophisticated and provincial in their meaning.

Karen seems similar to calling someone middle-class or maybe even bourgeoisie.

Yes.
Every society has it's own fault lines. Region, country down to town level.
Its absolute arrogance to assume that US problems are applicable everywhere.
It's not black / white in Kashmir. Its hindu/Muslim.
In Belfast its Catholic/protestant
In Rwanda in tutsi/ Hutu.

In very many places class is the fault line, not race.

I do think in America they would do well to use class as an analysis tool rather than race.

But guess what's universal?

@Goosefoot

Redneck refers to farm labourers, mainly - their necks get red from working bent over in the sun.

Not exactly. It is a derogatory class insult applied to white share croppers in the SE US. They did not own the land or any slaves so they could not vote nor afford to hire help so they had to work the fields themselves.

Yep true.

Class in USA goes against the anyone can do it dream. Is the bottom line.

In recent years it was reclaimed by conservative white males who consider themselves 'country' no matter where they are from. Some stand up comic whose name I don't recall started it.

@7Days

Yes. Every society has it's own fault lines. Region, country down to town level. Its absolute arrogance to assume that US problems are applicable everywhere. It's not black / white in Kashmir. Its hindu/Muslim. In Belfast its Catholic/protestant In Rwanda in tutsi/ Hutu.

In very many places class is the fault line, not race.

I do think in America they would do well to use class as an analysis tool rather than race.

But guess what's universal?

Race is fundamentally a class distinction, it exists as a concept to justify a type of economic stratification. You see the same thing in other societies, whatever set of charachteristics you want can desinate a particular group as economically exploitable.

And since race is now a living idea, in that sense that there are ongoing outcomes of that exploitation, that economic stratification continues to reinforce the perception as race itself as a real distinction. So it's a kind of loop.

White women calling police on black men & women, exaggerating situation in the hope that there's an arrest. Which they know is extremely dangerous for black people.

Don't reduce it to a men vs women spat and act as if you don't know the reality of the dangers of a 'Karen'. You 100% do know, but believe that as white women they should get away with racist actions designed to cause harm and imprisonment.

To think many of you have much to say about transwomen not being women for example, but in the blink of an eye you can excuse and aim to divert away from the reprehensible actions of white women harassing black people in the hope of bringing the law down on them. You quickly bring men into the equation too, "It's not racist white women it's the men" style, to back up what is being said.

Anyone suggesting white men's racism doesn't get called out is being disingenuous, nobody can be that unaware and not know white men are relentlessly called out and have been for years.

Racist 'Karens' have been a danger to black people since Emmett Till. & in fact, even before then.