"How the 'Karen Meme' Confronts the Violent History of White Womanhood"

[Igneococcus]

This just popped up as a recomendation in Firefox when I open a new tab. I can't fully read it right now because I'm in a meeting any moment now (someone's still sorting out techinical issues), but a first quick scan makes me go "WTF" :

time.com/5857023/karen-meme-history-meaning/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

But “Karen” wasn’t about racist women.

See those 3 memes posted at the top of the thread? Notice that haircut? That’s was the original idea of “Karen” in America.

It’s certain stereotype of a American woman, typically a take-charge type, know-it-all, dressed and groomed a certain way, definitely not sexy, probably drives a mini-van and has her kids in every activity available, scheduled up to her ass to show she’s super-mom.

It’s the type of woman that’s the first to complain about anything and everything large and small. Bitching all the time and proud of what she considers her problem solving skills. Karen was created as the adult woman equivalent of the annoying tattle-tale kid on the playground. They exist.

When women started being filmed calling the police because a black person was doing something “against the rules.”, they started using various white, middle class sounding names like Karen, Becky, etc. Because it is pretty unusual for a black woman to be called “Karen”. And Becky absolutely was the friend of the white bitchy girl from the Sir Mix-a-Lot song, a stereotype that even us white girls laughed about when the song came out. Because bitchy women exist but we knew that if you’re not one, you’re not who the song was mocking.

And in fact, I saw a post on twitter by a black man who called Christian Cooper a “Karen” for calling out and filming Amy Cooper for having her dog in an off-limits place in Central Park. So no, in America “Karen” isn’t being used solely toward women or racist white women.

Time publishes an article with this sentence, “There’s the oft-cited stat that 52% of white women voted for Donald Trump in the 2016 election.”

Obviously the 52% number is being used to bolster the argument about the violence of white women. But the link Time provides goes to another Time article which explains why the 52% figure is wrong.

Which is why Time uses “oft-quoted”. It’s weasel words, using a false statistic but providing deniability, “we only said it’s been quoted, we didn’t say it was true.”

I’m not pointing this out as some defence for my fragile feelings, but to suggest that if the writer and the publisher are willing to be so squirrelly with some facts, it’s probably worth being cautious about the whole article.

Women are not better humans than men, they are just other humans. But because women rarely have power of their own, the way they use their borrowed power is through manipulation of those who have power. And women who have no power of their own may be more vicious in defence of the status quo because social disorder is more dangerous for women and children.

It seems to just be explaining the American version of Karen. Not really relevant to the U.K. where it has a completely different meaning. Perhaps if could have acknowledged that white women racists are just trying to use their race to stop themselves slipping to the bottom of the heap and that their behaviour is a result of patriarchy more than racism in the vast majority of cases, given how ridiculously long it was.

I'm really not sure what borrowed power white women weaponised in my national context.

The Church was heavily involved in racist policy - I guess I can see that nuns borrowed the institutional power of the make Church to carry out assimilationist policy.

I understand that Emmet Till has a powerful resonance to Americans. It doesn't have the same resonance where I'm from, because racism is constellated differently here.

The equivalent, perhaps, for me, is the Stolen Generation. Did white women engage in the project of removing Aboriginal children from their mothers? Along with white men, yes. But US history, culpability, imagery - it's not mine. I have no idea what response is desired from the Karen meme in my context.

Nobody here in my country can evoke Emmet Till with their behaviour because our history and our manifestations of racism are different.

Yes, she is. She called the police on purpose, changed her voice to act as if she was afraid and in danger when she was on the phone and then returned it to normal the moment she was off. She knew exactly what she was doing. It wasn’t just awful, she was purposely making a false call, wasting police time, and taking away from people who actually needed help. Those cops showed up because of her and both her and the man were gone

I agree. But I have to say that if a man (any man, regardless of his race) said “I’m gonna do something and you’re not gonna like it” (or something along those lines) as Christian Cooper did, I would want to call the police too.

As for the couple who called the police on their Filipino neighbour for writing BLM on his own property - yes, they were (probably racist) arseholes, but do they deserve to lose their jobs (and potentially, everything they have)? I don’t think so. The public shaming is enough, surely?

I personally find the Karen meme misogynistic. No, I’m not as angry about it as I am about the racist behaviour associated with so-called Karens, but it’s not an either/or thing.

I’m also sick of American cultural references being applied to the UK and elsewhere. To me, America is a really fucked up country with a culture of violence and bullying. Other countries have their problems too but they’re not the SAME problems.

Why did they have to use the name, 'Karen'? Why not invent a name which nobody has instead of using one that many reasonable people do have. It's horrible.

I agree with the sentiments, just not the name.

Perhaps if could have acknowledged that white women racists are just trying to use their race to stop themselves slipping to the bottom of the heap and that their behaviour is a result of patriarchy more than racism in the vast majority of cases

I agree with this. Some white women don't want to give up their white privaledge because it's the one thing that gives them some power over some men in a sexist world. And some black me don't want to give up their male privaledge because it's the one thing that gives them some power over some white people in a racist world. And I'm sorry but to say that black men don't benefit from patriarchy is ridiculous. All men benefit from patriarchy, no matter what other forms of oppression they face. There is a big push atm to act as if the power differential between white women and black men is all flowing in one direction, which isn't true. Black men have male privaledge over white women and white women have white privaledge over black men and no one wants to put down their guns until the other side does it first. And while we go head to head trying to argue who needs to step down first, the white men who actually hold all the power and who actually created and control all the systems of oppression, just get on with their lives. They're perfectly happy to let the finger of blame fall on white women because that is no challenge whatsoever to their power. And for activists, white women are a soft target because they are easy to bully - hating women never goes out of fashion so it's a cause everyone can get behind. Everyone gets to feel like they've done something but nothing actually changes. So if all people want is to vent their rage and frustration without having to worry about too much of a backlash, then keep on pushing the Karen meme. If you actually want to reduce the number of black people being murdered then you need to address the source of the problem which is male violence and white male supremacy.

'Karen' is an ageist and misogynist term. Plenty of white men or young white women are racist but we don't get to use a handy put-down term to refer to them.

If you want to attack an individual for being racist, attack an individual for being racist.

Don't be misogynist and ageist yourself.

It doesn't add to your point, it adds to the total sum of discrimination in the world.

Sick of older women being put down for being older women.

@ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings

Perhaps if could have acknowledged that white women racists are just trying to use their race to stop themselves slipping to the bottom of the heap and that their behaviour is a result of patriarchy more than racism in the vast majority of cases

I agree with this. Some white women don't want to give up their white privaledge because it's the one thing that gives them some power over some men in a sexist world. And some black me don't want to give up their male privaledge because it's the one thing that gives them some power over some white people in a racist world. And I'm sorry but to say that black men don't benefit from patriarchy is ridiculous. All men benefit from patriarchy, no matter what other forms of oppression they face. There is a big push atm to act as if the power differential between white women and black men is all flowing in one direction, which isn't true. Black men have male privaledge over white women and white women have white privaledge over black men and no one wants to put down their guns until the other side does it first. And while we go head to head trying to argue who needs to step down first, the white men who actually hold all the power and who actually created and control all the systems of oppression, just get on with their lives. They're perfectly happy to let the finger of blame fall on white women because that is no challenge whatsoever to their power. And for activists, white women are a soft target because they are easy to bully - hating women never goes out of fashion so it's a cause everyone can get behind. Everyone gets to feel like they've done something but nothing actually changes. So if all people want is to vent their rage and frustration without having to worry about too much of a backlash, then keep on pushing the Karen meme. If you actually want to reduce the number of black people being murdered then you need to address the source of the problem which is male violence and white male supremacy.

This, times a hundred.

The refusal to work through the points ByGrab raised is, ironically, about as un-intersectional as it gets. Particularly when you take things out of a US context and into contexts where murder by police and lynching haven't been imprinted into the culture for generations.

Women are safer targets for anger than men.

I am also tired of this constant USA centricity

Karen is not used like that here

'And Becky absolutely was the friend of the white bitchy girl from the Sir Mix-a-Lot song, a stereotype that even us white girls laughed about when the song came out. '

We are not you. We are not American. We do not know what the hell you are talking about to be quite frank.

Beck/ Becky has been used way before that song I've never heard past it was on friends I seem to remember. I don't know the words apart from the highly misogynistic main lyric that they sang on friends. It sounds like a shit song.

Beck/ Becky here has for much longer been used to refer to a certain type of Jewish person. Which is obviously not great. But my point is WE ARE NOT AMERICAN so stop insisting we know all this stuff about your culture when we live in a different sodding country.

@ShinyFootball

I am also tired of this constant USA centricity

Karen is not used like that here

'And Becky absolutely was the friend of the white bitchy girl from the Sir Mix-a-Lot song, a stereotype that even us white girls laughed about when the song came out. '

We are not you. We are not American. We do not know what the hell you are talking about to be quite frank.

Beck/ Becky has been used way before that song I've never heard past it was on friends I seem to remember. I don't know the words apart from the highly misogynistic main lyric that they sang on friends. It sounds like a shit song.

Beck/ Becky here has for much longer been used to refer to a certain type of Jewish person. Which is obviously not great. But my point is WE ARE NOT AMERICAN so stop insisting we know all this stuff about your culture when we live in a different sodding country.

Not sure why you are so angry at me People have been throwing about what it means in both countries. TIME is an American magazine, no? I just chimed in.

Are you perhaps the type to tell people they don’t belong, don’t have a right to be somewhere because “you aren’t us”? To believe you have some dominance over others because of your color, social standing, or other unearned quality.

That explains why you don’t like the term then.

Are you perhaps the type to tell people they don’t belong, don’t have a right to be somewhere because “you aren’t us”? To believe you have some dominance over others because of your color, social standing, or other unearned quality

Oh stop it. She was one of several people saying “the UK and US cultural contexts are very different”, and you come back with THAT?

That explains why you don’t like the term then.

I think that's unfair. Posters are responding to an argument that keeps going like this -

UK Posters - The Karen meme is misogynistic
Posters from USA perspective - The Karen meme is justified by 'shaniqa' and 'sir mixalot'' and Karens are always racist middle class women
UK Posters - We've never heard of shaniqa and sir mixalot and Karen isn't a middle class name

Acknowledging that the USA and the UK have different cultural frames of reference isn't 'telling people they don't belong'.

So you're suggesting that because I pointed out the fact Becky doesn't mean that here, Karen doesn't mean that here etc

I'm, what, a NF type person?

That's a pretty incredible leap.

This is why it’s impossible to ever get a really good online discussion that gets to the bottom of the issues. Cheap shots.

Also why are you assuming I'm responding to you?

I just had a quick squiz and you've only posted once, ages ago.

There were some more recent posts that were incredulous that we didn't know what the shaniqa thing was.

Be straightforward.

Do you think I'm am NF type person or what. You've as good as said it.

Dominance over others? What on earth?

Yes it's a bit odd.

Hanna I want you to give me a straight answer as to whether you genuinely believe I'm an NF type person.

No answer I see.

Well in that case I'm popping off for a bit too watch an old screwdriver vid and do a bit of marching

No answer because I haven’t been online again until now.

I think your post responding to what I said, with all caps, using curse words, basically trying to shut me up because I’m not from UK was quite shitty.

I was only posting some context about my own perspective that Karen was not originally about white racist women. Even now it’s used as a blanket thing about an annoying stereotype always asking for the manager or authorities, not specially only related to racism.

I only skimmed all the other posts between now. Almost missed my entire point (as restated in the paragraph above).

I’ll just not post on this thread again since I only posted once, am not from UK, don’t feel welcome on it now. I think many women don’t support women and yes, you are definitely giving me that vibe.

The "speak to the manager" was the original. We can see from News articles like this one, globalnews.ca/news/6986111/central-park-karen-amy-cooper-dog/ which says :

Melody Cooper described Amy on Twitter as a “Karen,” an internet slang term for an annoying, middle-aged white woman who wants to share her trivial complaints with someone in authority (often a manager). The term has been around for a few years, but it’s become more common during the novel coronavirus pandemic as a shorthand for ignorant and abrasive white women.

Many of Amy Cooper’s critics called her a “racist Karen” for taking her complaints to the police and not a manager. They also compared the incident to past cases of racial injustice in which white women falsely accused Black men of crimes.

Here's the thread:

twitter.com/melodymcooper/status/1264965252866641920

So yes. A term for "ignorant and abrasive white women". Or, if you want, any woman you don't want to fuck and do want to shut up.

So you aren't going to confirm if you think I'm some kind of NF type.

Silence I'm guessing means yes you think so and you said as much in your post.

That is one hell of an accusation to make to a stranger when they point out that the USA and UK are not the same cultures and have different histories and reference points.

Oh lol I'm a woman hater now as well. Ties in with my NF tendencies well though.