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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"How the 'Karen Meme' Confronts the Violent History of White Womanhood"

367 replies

Igneococcus · 03/07/2020 09:17

This just popped up as a recomendation in Firefox when I open a new tab. I can't fully read it right now because I'm in a meeting any moment now (someone's still sorting out techinical issues), but a first quick scan makes me go "WTF" :

time.com/5857023/karen-meme-history-meaning/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

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ArriettyJones · 03/07/2020 12:37

I absolutely hate the way words like “violence” are being so rapidly devalued.

As for the rest, I am BAME, but I am (very) mixed heritage BAME, the kind of mix that makes you pray you’ll never need a donor organ. I’m increasingly really uncomfortable with the stereotyping of “whiteness” that is as broad brush, unfair and inaccurate as anything the racists ever came up with about black & brown people. I suppose it’s natural that I would have mixed feelings and divided loyalties, but there are millions of us, so I can’t be the only one who feels torn in several directions by this craziness. I can’t help feeling the long term hope for us all is more marriages and partnerships like my parents’ and my grandparents’. I used to think that was schmaltzy, kumbayah kind of notion, but I can see it now.

In any case, I was always much more of a fan of Dr King than I was of Malcolm X and this all feels like Malcolm X +++ to me.

There was such an amazing head of steam against police brutality, I wish we could concentrate on that issue, effect some real, lasting change there and stop getting sidelined by meme-based bullshit.

ArriettyJones · 03/07/2020 12:39

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I think 'Karen' and 'Becky' were first used by black women to refer to racist, white women, however it has now been appropriated by white men, and in the UK is just used to refer to any middle aged women.

"Becky" was, and black women may have picked up on an already existing meme and popularised it further with that meaning, but it doesn't look like "Karen" was first used by black women, from what I've read. It looks like it was started by men originally.

The choice of the name “Becky” for such a vicious trope has always seemed uncomfortably anti-Semitic to me.
OvaHere · 03/07/2020 12:56

The choice of the name “Becky” for such a vicious trope has always seemed uncomfortably anti-Semitic to me.

I might be wrong about this but I'm sure I read that it originated in a JayZ song and was a reference to Victoria Beckham. Maybe because of some kind of spat with Beyonce.

Don't take this as gospel - I think I read it once on one of those gossip sites (possibly Lipstick Alley).

NotTerfNorCis · 03/07/2020 12:57

There was such an amazing head of steam against police brutality, I wish we could concentrate on that issue, effect some real, lasting change there and stop getting sidelined by meme-based bullshit.

That's very true - the protests brought out more evidence of the US police being both violent and dishonest. The attention shifted too quickly to statues and old TV series and 'white women's tears'. What they should be focusing on is police brutality plus the systemic inequality which creates generations living in poverty. But for some reason they aren't.

ArriettyJones · 03/07/2020 13:01

I might be wrong about this but I'm sure I read that it originated in a JayZ song and was a reference to Victoria Beckham. Maybe because of some kind of spat with Beyonce.

Could VB really be described as having “good hair”?

OvaHere · 03/07/2020 13:03

@OvaHere

The choice of the name “Becky” for such a vicious trope has always seemed uncomfortably anti-Semitic to me.

I might be wrong about this but I'm sure I read that it originated in a JayZ song and was a reference to Victoria Beckham. Maybe because of some kind of spat with Beyonce.

Don't take this as gospel - I think I read it once on one of those gossip sites (possibly Lipstick Alley).

Just to follow up on this. I had a google and it seems it was a Beyonce song it was in and it was heavily speculated to be about a woman having an affair with JayZ.

It seems like the internet was awash with rumours and guesses at the time which is likely where I picked up on Victoria Beckham (it's probably not her).

www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/who-becky-good-hair-theories-7835398

OvaHere · 03/07/2020 13:06

@ArriettyJones

I might be wrong about this but I'm sure I read that it originated in a JayZ song and was a reference to Victoria Beckham. Maybe because of some kind of spat with Beyonce.

Could VB really be described as having “good hair”?

Probably not. She did sport that short style for ages that seems to have become synonymous with the Karen and call the manager memes so maybe everything has just evolved into a horrible mis mash of internet conjecture and misogyny.
ArriettyJones · 03/07/2020 13:10

I don’t think Beyoncé was the one who took the “Becky” trope to extremes anyway. So she’s not on the hook for it all.

I’m just so sick of trivial memes and cod ideological theory.

ArriettyJones · 03/07/2020 13:11

That's very true - the protests brought out more evidence of the US police being both violent and dishonest. The attention shifted too quickly to statues and old TV series and 'white women's tears'. What they should be focusing on is police brutality plus the systemic inequality which creates generations living in poverty. But for some reason they aren't.

Exactly this.

QuentinWinters · 03/07/2020 13:11

"White women are positioned as the virtue of society because they hold that position as the mother, as the keepers of virtuosity, all these ideologies that we associate with white motherhood and white women in particular, their certain role in society gives them power and when you couple that with this racist history, where white women are afraid of black men and black men are hypersexualized and seen as dangerous, then that’s really a volatile combination.”

Williams says the exposure is challenging this position. “That’s part of what people aren’t seeing is that white women do have this power and they’re exercising that power when they call or threaten to call the police.”

As might be expected, found a way to jest about this power dynamic, but the very nature of a humorous approach presents a risk by downplaying the threat. The violent history is why Williams cautions against letting the at-times humorous nature of Karen memes minimize the ways in which white womanhood has long posed danger to black and brown lives

I'm properly raging. White women get stereotyped as virtuous mothers and then told this stereotype is power? White women are dangerous to black and brown people? Wtf?

Where are the articles about white men? Where does the stereotype that women are weak and need protecting and black men are attackers come from? Clue:Not women or black people.

Time has gone right down in my estimation.

ZazieRosie · 03/07/2020 13:14

Oppression Olympics = Divide and Rule

WeeBisom · 03/07/2020 13:18

I highly recommend that everyone read “from practice to theory, or what is a white woman anyway?” by Catherine Mackinnon. It could have been written yesterday.

Something I notice about the “Karen” thing is it highly magnifies the racism of white women while ignoring the men. Racist white women are hyper individualised, massively outsized grotesque caricatures; whereas racist white men are invisible forces of nature; background radiation. I’ve seen countless memes and cartoons and op eds about Amy Cooper , the woman who threatened to call the police on a black man in Central Park. I don’t know anything about the old white man who bellowed “white power” in the video that Donald Trump shared. Why has no one scrabbled to find his name ? Who is he? Where are the outraged memes, the write ups ? We all know who Amy Cooper is, and she was greatly punished. We have no idea who this guy is , and to be honest we don’t care. He’s just some white supremacist , placeholder or token. He doesn’t need to be anyone in particular. But I do wonder ... why have we chosen as society to punish the female racist but not the male one ? Why does he become representative of the wider problem of the alt right as opposed to an individual person who has committed a wrong ?

One more thing to highlight why karen is now basically a synonym for “that bitch I don’t like”. Before I deleted my Reddit account, I saw a video from the trial of Larry Nasser. Larry Nasser raped and sexually assaulted hundreds of girls in the US gymnastics team. During the trial the father of one of the girls asked the judge to grant him “just five minutes” alone with Nasser. After she obviously refused, he launched himself at Nasser (in front of his hysterical child) and promptly got arrested and dragged out.

After he got arrested, a woman rushed over to the witnesses and quietly but firmly stated that she didn’t want to see another parent arrested. She explained how this could hurt the trial. She explained how it handed power over to Nasser. She explained how it undermined the justice system.

The Redditors (who are mostly males) loved the macho display from the father. He was a hero. In fact , the other fathers were losers for sitting there quietly instead of all rushing up to get Nasser. And there was real bile reserved for that “Karen” , the woman who had stood up to talk to the parents. “Shut the fuck up, Karen” , said the comments. “Who the fuck is that annoying Karen with her stupid speech? I wanted to punch her.”

That “Karen” was the chief prosecutor who had prepared the case and took it to trial. That “Karen” was the woman who ended up getting Nasser jailed for hundreds of years. That “Karen” was the women who fought and campaigned on behalf of the girls so every single one could deliver a full witness statement - unprecedented in such a large trial. That “Karen” got justice for these young women, and the father only managed to succeed to make an ass of himself and traumatise his daughters further. And I’m sorry, but when you call a woman like that a “Karen” ... well, if that’s what a Karen is I hope I’m a karen too.

Goosefoot · 03/07/2020 13:27

Anything I've looked into suggests that "Karen" didn't originally have much if anything to do with white women's attitude to black women (or black men). It's origins seem to be with retail workers mainly.

Goosefoot · 03/07/2020 13:29

@NotTerfNorCis

There was such an amazing head of steam against police brutality, I wish we could concentrate on that issue, effect some real, lasting change there and stop getting sidelined by meme-based bullshit.

That's very true - the protests brought out more evidence of the US police being both violent and dishonest. The attention shifted too quickly to statues and old TV series and 'white women's tears'. What they should be focusing on is police brutality plus the systemic inequality which creates generations living in poverty. But for some reason they aren't.

Just shocking, eh? Couldn't have guessed that might happen.
merrymouse · 03/07/2020 13:40

White women are positioned as the virtue of society because they hold that position as the mother, as the keepers of virtuosity, all these ideologies that we associate with white motherhood and white women in particular, their certain role in society gives them power

I think this is true up to a point, but it is very limited power. It's not just a question of prejudice - many churches, particularly in America, literally teach that women should be restricted to this role.

The point that the piece doesn't address is that the 'Karen' meme re-enforces this ideology. The role of women is to silently support men, not to speak up.

The violent history is why Williams cautions against letting the at-times humorous nature of Karen memes minimize the ways in which white womanhood has long posed danger to black and brown lives.

I don't think the writer means this, but as I said before, the concept of defending white female purity, has been used as a justification for lynch mobs, so this is true.

That’s not to say that memes aren’t ultimately beneficial, however. According to Williams, Karen memes can serve different purposes for different audiences. For white people, it can help them recognize a pattern of behavior that they don’t want to be a part of it, but might be complicit in and can be an easier way to have a conversation about white fragility, entitlement and privilege; it also holds them accountable for racism.

Not really - most people on twitter posting about 'Karens' aren't posting about racism, they are just misogynists.

DandyMandy · 03/07/2020 14:05

This meme annoys the hell out of me. Isn't it interesting how this article talks about the "violent history of white womanhood" but no one will ever speak about male violence. As far as I'm aware, these women who have been recorded and had their lives ruined were not violent towards anyone yet men are allowed to be as violent as they like because women are the scapegoats as always. This meme is supposed to silence us. I also find it intriguing how suddenly everyone knows what a woman is when they're talking about "Karens". Hmm, that's very telling indeed. George Floyd was murdered by a male but no one cares that white men are going around killing black men and women (and other white people too) because the truth is, black men benefit from the patriarchy but refuse to admit it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/07/2020 14:27

Honestly I don't know erish - I have definitely heard people claim this, but wouldn't know how to prove or disprove it.

Yes so have I, but I don't think it's true, from what I've read. As you say, it's not really the point, except when the supposed "origin" in anti racism is used to say to women that they must accept being called a Karen or they're basically racist.

insideandout3 · 03/07/2020 14:59

I'm old so this may not be relevant, but the second bestselling song of 1992 was by black artist Sir Mix-a-Lot and the popular video started with one "basic bitch" white woman sneeringly saying to another white woman, "Oh, my, God Becky, look at her butt! It is so big. She's just so black!"

TheRealMcKenna · 03/07/2020 16:09

Divide and rule indeed....

Gotta love those blue checks....

"How the 'Karen Meme' Confronts the Violent History of White Womanhood"
oldwhyno · 03/07/2020 16:31

@WeeBisom well said!

DandyMandy · 03/07/2020 16:39

@TheRealMcKenna

Divide and rule indeed....

Gotta love those blue checks....

That's a very long way to say "I hate white women". Interesting how they have all of this hatred towards white women but absolutely none towards white men who are the ones that are causing the most harm.
TheRealMcKenna · 03/07/2020 16:47

DandyMandy my thoughts exactly.

TheRealMcKenna · 03/07/2020 16:57

And here’s another (same journalist who writes for the Washington Post)

"How the 'Karen Meme' Confronts the Violent History of White Womanhood"
BluebonicPlague · 03/07/2020 17:01

Great post, WeeBisom