"How the 'Karen Meme' Confronts the Violent History of White Womanhood"

[Igneococcus]

This just popped up as a recomendation in Firefox when I open a new tab. I can't fully read it right now because I'm in a meeting any moment now (someone's still sorting out techinical issues), but a first quick scan makes me go "WTF" :

time.com/5857023/karen-meme-history-meaning/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

I do totally agree that men are in general much worse in terms of the type of violence being discussed, but that's already been discussed ad infinitum and the focus here is on women.

He's the most racist stereotyping pale and stale male that you are likely to meet - he's alf garnet on steroids, thankfully he lives in west Wales - a long way away and full of his type of people

I think that anything that casually stereotypes any person, on an individual level is lazy and unhelpful

Do you not see the irony of saying that anything that casually stereotypes any person on an individual level is lazy and unhelpful when placed beside your lazy stereotyping of the residents of north Wales?

I think I understand about the weaponisation of white woman's tears after reading that article. However, I'm going to risk sounding dismissive by saying it happens to white women too. Strategic tears work best (perhaps only work) when performed in front of a male audience. They need to be performed by the youngest, prettiest and yes, whitest damsel in distress in the room. It's a competition in feminine victimhood and I'm sure it's true that it happens to black women more. It's DARVO for manipulative women. I've certainly been on the receiving end of it myself. It doesn't always work and can often backfire as some people do see it for what it is and find it pretty annoying. It's certainly not employed by every woman and the times I have had it used against me were always by very stereotypically feminine women. Then again, maybe if I'd have been black, I'd have been further down the damsel hierarchy and had a larger range of women trying it against me. I haven't seen similar behaviour in men, but then, they often have other strategies at their disposal.

I’m probably like many women; I cry when I’m really angry. I’ve been taught that anger is not appropriate for women; rage is not acceptable, shouting or banging things is unfeminine.

I wonder how much of those women’s tears are actually female rage?

It’s also worth noting that Robin DiAngelo, who wrote a best-selling book disparaging women and their supposed “fragility”, and who rakes in a lot of cash through her corporate “diversity training”, is a white woman.

Well, if ‘Karen’ formerly had a different meaning in the UK than the US, it doesn’t any more.

twitter.com/bbcsounds/status/1279837698769825792?s=21

I’m off to go an read the comments on that tweet.... Should be entertaining.

Can't we just stop using the Karen meme? Not that I ever have nor would I; I didn't realise it was becoming popular over here but it could be stopped in its tracks if people were a bit more thoughtful.

Some other word, not a person's name, could be used instead.

Well, if ‘Karen’ formerly had a different meaning in the UK than the US, it doesn’t any more.

Yes it does. It's not about racism for most people in the UK. The BBC repeats all this American idpol from Twitter as if it's gospel and equally applies here.

It's a way to put women down. And the original Karen meme was started by some sad bloke so that wasn't about racism either.

It's as meaningful and nuanced as "ok boomer". It's just an insult.

"Reni Eddo-Lodge goes into great detail how she felt in feminist meetings where her issues as a black woman were ignored due to white women not experiencing the same issues."

I empathise with that, but when there are so many feminist meetings that I literally, physically cannot access, I have to personally prioritise emphasising disability provision within feminism. I cannot deal with everyone's problems.

BBC are right on board with 'Karen'. BBC sounds yesterday: '"How can white women not be Karens?"'.

twitter.com/BBCSounds/status/1279837698769825792

Unsurprisingly, quite a lot of people objected to this bullshit clip.

When challenged, Charlotte Lydia Riley says something about T**fs and explains that :

'The fact that there is not a male equivalent of the term “Karen” does not mean that “Karen” is misogynist, it means that it’s a label specifically describing the weaponisation of a particular type of white femininity, come on, this isn’t hard'

FYI, the answers to how women can 'not be Karens' is

1. 'Educate yourself'
2. 'Try not to be defensive'.
3. 'Don't be so loud'.
4. 'Basically, leave'

(I wish I was joking)

I empathise with that, but when there are so many feminist meetings that I literally, physically cannot access, I have to personally prioritise emphasising disability provision within feminism. I cannot deal with everyone's problems.

Yes, this is also my experience.

I'm a carer; being able to get to feminist meetings is not something I'm able to do regularly.

Of the meetings I have been to, they were abortion law reform focused, and women of all ethnic backgrounds attended. One organiser was ex Muslim, another was white. I don't recognise the idea of feminists sitting around in a circle tossing around action ideas, and saying 'not that, too black'. Maybe because I don't have the freedom to be part of initiating committees, idk. I never feel particularly welcome as a non-important woman at these things, but when I get to actions, it's to be another body in support, so yeah. Not about my feelings, I guess, though I do think there's some classism in urban organised feminism.

I really hope to not put anyone’s nose out of joint here, but I notice feminism has a lexicon already for women that prop up patriarchy which is handmaiden. It doesn’t seem as immediately offensive as Karen and it often seems to prompt exploration and sensitivity to internalised misogyny.

My hope is that maybe it can be looked at in a similar vein here. I mean we all want to live in a society entirely free from racism and sexism, and we can tackle both simultaneously.

My meagre analysis is that it stems from the objectification of women, both as sex objects and as free labour, as such white patriarchy obviously places more inherent value on white women than black women. See the phenomenon of missing white girl syndrome, when young black women go missing we all just collectively give way less of a shit tragically.

I don’t know if this helps, but in my personal life and thanks to a hobby I pursue online through lockdown I have made some solid friendships with some African American women in Atlanta, and obviously when the murder of Ahmaud Arbery happened it kicked off some discussions about race. I must say my eyes have been opened wider on issues of race.

As with most things it’s Male violence that hang as a shadow over most problems in our society be they race, sex or even this contemporaneous trans debate.

I can barely tackle daily life, tbh.
I think there are some very unrealistic ideas about what all white women can achieve.

We're not all getting dressed up the maid and living in Downton Abbey.

Having said that, my donations the last few months have gone to Aboriginal and refugee causes, plus the food pantry.

I just don't think the dehumanisation of white women as a racist, privileged mass of Karen's is the path to justice for anyone.

*dressed up BY the maid

@KarenKuruma

"Reni Eddo-Lodge goes into great detail how she felt in feminist meetings where her issues as a black woman were ignored due to white women not experiencing the same issues."

I empathise with that, but when there are so many feminist meetings that I literally, physically cannot access, I have to personally prioritise emphasising disability provision within feminism. I cannot deal with everyone's problems.

As she said issues that did not affect them were ignored... There is a subtle difference between prioritising and ignoring. Even listening to issues that others face is step one.

@HeistSociety no one is saying you must tackle everything however, ignoring others issues and then when ‘you’ perpetuate the oppression of others and when ‘you’ are called out for it crying about the sisterhood is rather off. ‘You’ weren’t up for helping out another sister...

@TheProdigalKittensReturn

Even in the US it often just attacks women. I saw a woman who going by her name was most likely Chinese called a Karen for posting a complaint on social media about an old white guy flashing her when she was out on a walk. It pretty much just means "woman who's complaining about anything" when deployed by men.

based af it's literally just another flavour of 'pipe down love' and young libfems are eating it up to 'combat racism'.

@stillathing

I've not read it, sorry. But 3 seconds ago nobody in the UK had a clue that Karen meme was about wealthy racist American women (which doesn't stop it being somewhat misogynist). In the UK it was routinely used to mock working class and lower middle class women (of any race) for their clothing, hairstyle, interior decoration choices and for having the temerity to stand up for themselves despite their lowly status.

Does anyone remember the comeback reminding young people that "Karen" was their childminder, and their TA, and used to look after them?

Accepting the US version of "Karen" handily erases the fact that UK misogynists have been using it against black women and working class women.

American vocabulary and slogans are routinely copied with gusto in the UK, the discrepancy is just particularly jarring with the "Karen" meme. Copied and pasted into the UK context, it spreads - as Julie Bindel has remarked - contempt for working-class people in addition to misogyny.

The internet and celebrity culture have empowered US cultural imperialism to the extent that many British people genuinely think they live in the 51st state of the USA.

And most US commentators (as exemplified by some of the responses to Julie Bindel on twitter) have precisely zero self-awareness of their own ethnocentricity.

based af it's literally just another flavour of 'pipe down love' and young libfems are eating it up to 'combat racism'.

YY. How convenient that so much activism can focus on sneering at women.

@ScrimpshawTheSecond

BBC are right on board with 'Karen'. BBC sounds yesterday: '"How can white women not be Karens?"'.

twitter.com/BBCSounds/status/1279837698769825792

Unsurprisingly, quite a lot of people objected to this bullshit clip.

When challenged, Charlotte Lydia Riley says something about T**fs and explains that :

'The fact that there is not a male equivalent of the term “Karen” does not mean that “Karen” is misogynist, it means that it’s a label specifically describing the weaponisation of a particular type of white femininity, come on, this isn’t hard'

FYI, the answers to how women can 'not be Karens' is

1. 'Educate yourself'
2. 'Try not to be defensive'.
3. 'Don't be so loud'.
4. 'Basically, leave'

(I wish I was joking)

I have the misfortune to come across Charlotte Lydia Riley on Twitter every now and then, despite my efforts to avoid her. She is relentlessly anti-women in her posts, always eager to join in any witch-hunt. (In other words, not just is she fully on board with TWAW, she thinks it's acceptable to hound women who aren't fully on board.) What's astonishing is that she is a historian so you'd think she might have a little glimmer of awareness of the history of persecuting people for thinking wrong thoughts.

I really have no understanding of how it is possible to be an educated woman and a) be so utterly unthinkingly stupid and b) hate other women so much.

“These memes are actually doing logical and political work of helping us get to legal changes or legislative changes, which is really something to be said. While of course, they aren’t a standalone movement on their own, they actively call out white supremacy and call for restitution. They really do that work of highlighting and sort of commenting on the racial inequality in a way that mainstream news doesn’t capture.”

That would be great if the Karen slur wasn’t exclusively directed at one class of people. That’s why it’s a slur.

I just don't think the dehumanisation of white women as a racist, privileged mass of Karen's is the path to justice for anyone.

Yup. And of course it's not really about getting justice, is it? It's about enjoying the full licence to demonstrate your misogyny under the guise of being anti-racist - in much the same way that being pro-trans gives you the same licence. There's zero recognition of the fact that the majority of racial violence against black people is carried out by white men, and zero attempt to demonise white men in the same way.

It no longer surprises me that men enjoy exercising their misogyny. I still find it disheartening when women join in with it, presumably because they enjoy the thrill of male approval they get when they give a "Karen" a good kicking.

It no longer surprises me that men enjoy exercising their misogyny. I still find it disheartening when women join in with it, presumably because they enjoy the thrill of male approval they get when they give a "Karen" a good kicking.

Yes, absolutely. It depresses me.

@NewNameNewShoes

Didn't mean to come across as goady as my posts read, but honestly it a little frustrating to see the amount of deflection going on when this type of behaviour is usually criticised on here.

For example, if somebody dares mention during a discussion about the pay gap that women outearn men until the age of 40 and that the gap is growing, they are accused of WATMing. But then when the focus is on white women, posters are incredibly to say WATM.

I think the focus here should be on the actions being described (e.g. of people like Amy Cooper etc) rather than endless quibbling about the meaning of 'Karen'.

I agree sometimes people are inconsistent and it is frustrating.

But it's not always the same people. I think it's pretty significant that the pay gap kicks in later and should be part of any discussion around it.

TBH I find the discussion on women's issues is often a little frustrating because people don't want to be open about what the evidence suggests, or consider different possible interpretations - it seems like they are looking for a pre-ordained conclusion. Race discussions often (not always) seem a little more open to different possibilities.

I see, RoyalCorgi. There seem to be quite a few of these educated, well spoken white women who do a lot of hectoring and attacking of older, less privileged women. Odd, really. Maybe not.