"How the 'Karen Meme' Confronts the Violent History of White Womanhood"

[Igneococcus]

This just popped up as a recomendation in Firefox when I open a new tab. I can't fully read it right now because I'm in a meeting any moment now (someone's still sorting out techinical issues), but a first quick scan makes me go "WTF" :

time.com/5857023/karen-meme-history-meaning/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

When I worked in retail there were some women who would insist on returning obviously used items

And a fair number of really creepy men

The last time I was in a restaurant the person who was insisting on having stuff taken off the bill and being a total arsehole was a man maybe about 70

Where's the name for creepy men? Dave? So every woman could say oh there was a man at the thing he was a right Dave, meaning creepy/ sexually inappropriate. How would all the Daves feel about that?

Where is the name for super entitled nasty older men?

Where is the name for super entitled nasty older men?

I don’t know the answer to that, but I do know that the virtuous are now going after the ‘wrong’ type of gay...

twitter.com/themendozawoman/status/1279431474408837120?s=21

@ShinyFootball

When I worked in retail there were some women who would insist on returning obviously used items

And a fair number of really creepy men

The last time I was in a restaurant the person who was insisting on having stuff taken off the bill and being a total arsehole was a man maybe about 70

Where's the name for creepy men? Dave? So every woman could say oh there was a man at the thing he was a right Dave, meaning creepy/ sexually inappropriate. How would all the Daves feel about that?

Where is the name for super entitled nasty older men?

Curmudgeon? Grandpa? Nob?

Like many things appropriated from the US, the Karen meme has ended up meaning something very different in the UK.

Saying one interpretation is wrong and the other correct, is just silly. If anything, as the US meaning with its racist element was the original, the UK interpretation could be said to be incorrect.

I've been having this very same discussion with some American friends, who were bemused by my take on the Karen meme. Once the misunderstanding was cleared up, we were able to continue the discussion with clarity.

If anything, as the US meaning with its racist element was the original,

No, the original meme on reddit or whatever doesn't appear to have anything specifically to do with racism. I wasn't even aware of that interpretation until the last couple of months because I'd just seen it used to criticise women for having opinions. I'll continue to call it out as a misogynistic slur, much like "terf", when it's used by men to put down women (I've seen it used by men to women of all races) simply for speaking up.

It all got started back in 2005 with a bit by comedian Dane Cook, about “Karen” the friend nobody likes, he did go on in the same bit to showcase the male version “Brian”.

From there the name “Karen” got attached to the “I’d like to speak to the manager haircut” meme. Now of course it’s evolved the racial element.

The original bit was essentially a piece of observational comedy about how we are all ultimately bullies, and unfortunately and perhaps ironically rather than prompting a layer of self reflection it’s become something of a marker on who it is socially acceptable for us to bully.

Note in the original bit it is not explained why either Karen nor Brian should be the target of such vitriol.

Well I found that Time advert to be really educational - I have a sister living in the US and I've been more and more perplexed about some of the things that she's been talking about on Facebook and one of the phrases that she used "white women's tears" totally bamboozled me - so I am grateful to be able to read an article that laid out the complete history and context of what's being said and referred to on twatter and other sm networks.

I'm bothered about the casual name calling and calling out that goes on these days, having worked in further education, had a heavy hand in safeguarding and been working in Birmingham you can see that I have had to examine my bias, concious and unconcous .

Especially since I grew up in the middle east as an expat - my father having been an engineer out there. He's the most racist stereotyping pale and stale male that you are likely to meet - he's alf garnet on steroids, thankfully he lives in west Wales - a long way away and full of his type of people.

I think that anything that casually stereotypes any person, on an individual level is lazy and unhelpful

I also think that if a person says they are not racist, then they are just not yet aware of their biases. I am aware of some of mine and I am careful to test and check my actions and conciously try and mitigate/ensure that I am as fair as possible, call out other people and think before I engage my mouth - it's the least that a white middle class middle adged person should do, given that I have chosen to live in a very diverse area of a diverse city (Because I grew up in a similar area, it feels a lot more like home here than the suburb we moved from)

But I digress, and I'm merailing, sorry.

I agree with what others have said - the context that Karen is used for in the US is not the same as the UK and to lump them in together is lazy at best disingenious af and at worst just trying to "gotcha" people who happen to be white on a UK website to screengrab or whatever.

"thankfully he lives in west Wales - a long way away and full of his type of people.

I think that anything that casually stereotypes any person, on an individual level is lazy and unhelpful"

Bit of an stereotypical view of welsh people there though!

Nope - none of the Welsh - he lives in a little enclave of fellow expats who have all lived abroad and share similar viewpoints. He'd have a hernia if he lived where I do.

I'm not stereotyping them I've met them

But I admit that I didn't make that clear in my post

Also ....

He lives here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_England_beyond_Wales

Bit disappointed to see so many posters crying "what about the men?" when asked to check their privilege.

These same posters are usually so dismissive of whataboutery when the shoe is on the other foot and they're playing the victim. Odd to see it become their first line of defence when the tables are turned. Also, all the attempts to try and downplay/distance themselves from the problem - "UK isn't the same as the US" etc.

There are undoubtedly some differences but when POC are telling you there's a problem you should shut up and listen. Otherwise you're just the same as blokes who try and mansplain that there's no patriarchy/inequality etc.

I don't 'shut up' for anyone, man, child, woman. That's abusive, anti-woman language.

Still rather have somebody tell me to 'shut up' than somebody phone the police and try and get me shot like white women keep doing.

Sorry; you use my abuser's language, I switch off (to listen to black voices that don't use that language).

I am POC and I’m still saying it - why are women being targeted when men are quite clearly the ones perpertrating the actual violence?

Ikeairgin,
Could you explain the "White women's tears" please?
I'm a US citizen and understand that to be a term used by incel and MRA types. No?

Women cry to get their own way or get out of trouble is one of the oldest man made myths.
It dehumanizes women into cynical manipulative con artists with no genuine feelings.
howitworks.png

It's a real head scratcher HarryHarry

Theres a world of a difference between some horrible woman trying to manipulate the police to get a black man shot, and a middle age female customer you find annoying.
I mean come on.

In the first case, no police officer should allow themselves to be manipulated. A complete lack of training and their own racism leads them to the murder point. How often do you get a perfect storm like that, where everyones evil nature lines up just so.

In the second case, get some perspective memelords. Customers are bloody annoying that's the downside of a people facing role. That's my job and 20 people talk down to me every day. Its not in any way comparable- imagine trying to.make it the same thing. Quite despicable really.

It isn’t simply that the U.K. is different from the US. It is that the US has been the dominant imperial force globally for the last seventy years. As such, it has an expectation that every other country should put the US experience, understanding and analysis of every issue front and centre. And in many countries, not doing so will be followed up with military and CIA action, interference in local democracies and broadcasting.

The US expectation that their ideologies should lead the world seems to transcend their culture wars and be pushed by both left and right, whether they are arguing for neoliberalism and the personhood of corporations or white fragility and the concept of privilege.

We do need to hear from other people and have more leadership from people with other experiences - like the children taken in Australia. This was on the U.K. curriculum but now people seem to be petitioning to have the curriculum replaced with more US stuff.

Given Australia is still in the Commonwealth, and dispossession of Aboriginal people directly related to British use of AU as a colony, studying the Stolen Generation makes a little more sense for a UK syllabus, than US specific history.

@TheProdigalKittensReturn

The "what about the Shaniqa meme" comment makes me wonder if some posters don't realize that the majority of this board is UK based people.

Brit here and it shaniqua was bandied about in my school... it might be an area thing but it was a thing in London.

For those early on talking about divide and conquer, try reading why I’m not longer talking to white people about race. Reni Eddo-Lodge goes into great detail how she felt in feminist meetings where her issues as a black woman were ignored due to white women not experiencing the same issues. If you want to talk about a sisterhood, it needs to not only benefit you.

@Stellwagen

Ikeairgin, Could you explain the "White women's tears" please? I'm a US citizen and understand that to be a term used by incel and MRA types. No?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/08/how-white-women-use-strategic-tears-to-avoid-accountability

Strategic tears.
Smh.

@SoVeryLost I haven’t read it yet but why does she say they ignored her issues? I’ve heard others say that it is more that they don’t know what to say or do because they haven’t had her particular experiences and therefore can’t really relate and/or are afraid of being patronising. I don’t know if that’s just an excuse or whatever. I’ve noticed certain members of my husband’s (white) family don’t really know how to talk to me about certain issues so they don’t even try. They think they’re being polite so I don’t hold it against them.

Didn't mean to come across as goady as my posts read, but honestly it a little frustrating to see the amount of deflection going on when this type of behaviour is usually criticised on here.

For example, if somebody dares mention during a discussion about the pay gap that women outearn men until the age of 40 and that the gap is growing, they are accused of WATMing. But then when the focus is on white women, posters are incredibly to say WATM.

I think the focus here should be on the actions being described (e.g. of people like Amy Cooper etc) rather than endless quibbling about the meaning of 'Karen'.