Dr Jordan Peterson

[12boo]

I believe I am a feminist
But I seem to be a fan of Jordan Peterson. Are these states totally incompatible?

An interesting and nuanced take on his work:

www.vox.com/conversations/2018/6/6/17409144/jordan-peterson-12-rules-for-life-feminism-philosophy

I think he is useful for men to hear at least. However I do think he is very Gender essentialist. He seems to think that gendered tendencies in personality are 1) purely “nature”/uninfluenced by upbringing and 2) men’s work should be worth more because it is outside of the home, so that explains the wage gap full stop.

Basically he sounds like another rehash of the argument that the ideal Gendered society is Somehow frozen in time around 1960 - everything before that is backwards and everything after that is “feminism gone too far”. None of it makes any scientific sense. We know for a fact that socialization influences children’s gendered behavior, that these differences are slight and vary by individual. We know also that it is not possible to completely rule in or out “Hard wired” causes. He talks with complete confidence about issues that are extremely squishy.

As a biologist I’ve always found psychologistS who talk about gender to be intellectually shallow so it’s not that surprising though. He needs to take some human genetics courses taught by actual biologists not “behavioral geneticists” who don’t really understand t he data and models they use IME

Thanks Nancy

Women only got the chance to go to University since the 1930's and it has taken a long time to be accepted as 'normal'. Men have been educated at Universities since 1167.
They didn't give us long to catch up & prove ourselves did they before it's there are men are 'naturally suited' to have the higher end jobs and it's low paid caring work that women are suited for.

I like him very much. I think he's genuine, and very brave. His books and lectures have been very helpful to me.

fwr can you recommend any biologists who make content on this stuff? Anyone who can communicate the stuff to the layperson?

He's a misogynist

it's there are men are 'naturally suited' to have the higher end jobs and it's low paid caring work that women are suited for.

Higher end jobs like bin man, sewage worker, labourer, street sweeper. Those sorts of swanky high end jobs?

Why do the men keep all the fun for themselves?!

@SarahTancredi

To think I'm left wing but am less convinced these days

Dont let the current pushing of boundaries and being forced to accept anything and everything or be labelled right wing or bigoted , make you stop feeling that being a relatively normal human being with normal reasonable views stop you from thinking you cant be left wing. Many of us are on the left. We havent changed. They just want us to think we have

Don't want to hijack the thread but had to step in as I find this a little bit offensive tbh. I'm sure you didn't mean to say that all people who are right of centre are bigoted, or are not a normal human with normal views, an inferior human. But that's how it came across. I am a Conservative voter (but not an extremist) , I don't want to argue with you on the whys and whats about left v right, but I am also staunchly GC, pro LGB, pro nationalisation of utilities and railways, but on most everything else I am right of centre. I also used to work in the NHS for almost a decade and having seen first hand the massive waste and inefficiency under Labour, I don't want to return to that. I'm sure there's many things we agree on and I'd always be happy to sit down with anyone holding opposing views to discuss our differences so please don't label people like me essentially sub human and write us off for holding the wrong views. Isn't that exactly the problem GC women are having?

He's a misogynist

She is transphobic

They are racist

I am so tired of insult as a form of killer argument. Surely we can do better than that.

@BilboBercow

He's a misogynist

I don't get that impression

Maybe I need to read his book again, but I didn’t get a too sexist impression (caveat for skimming text and potentially a high bar for misogyny due to working in a male dominated environment).

I thought he observed the results of research and had theories on why that was, not that it was something he was recommending.

In terms of women and career, I think I heard an interview with him where he elaborated that for the most high flying jobs, the sacrifice required in today’s society was huge and that women in general were more sensible and less obsessive. Therefore less likely to make that sacrifice.

I do like that he is telling people to sort themselves out. And I think boys need to take responsibility and have a good role model for what a man should be like, whether it is their dad, their football coach or a psychologist on the internet (who tells them to sort themselves out).

I have recently started watching lots and lots (and lots) of his videos. and i agree he's someone who can get very easily misunderstood if you don't listen to him openly and fully and don't start from a place with no prior prejudices. his ideas re taking responsibility for your life and what it means to lead a challenging fulfilling life should be appealing to everyone, no matter what gender

He is a member of that increasingly shrinking group of people who states what he believes to be the truth rather than what he is expected to say.

I call them the First Swords to the Sealord (if anyone’s read A Game of Thrones).

I don’t agree with him on everything, but I find his insights fascinating.

Since when do you have to agree with every opinion someone has?

I agree.

But when I looked at his videos a year ago I honestly didn't find Jordan Petersen very coherent.

He's a misogynistic. Plenty of his illogical word salad on YouTube.

@ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings

Most of what I've seen him say is overtly sexist I'm afraid. His main talking point seems to be that 1) women are biologically predetermined to be better at caring jobs and men are biologically predetermined to be better at maths, engineering, and being the boss. 2) The kind of work women are innately drawn to is objectively easier, less valuable, and lower skilled than the work men are innately drawn to, therefore those jobs will always command a lower wage. 3) Men will therefore always earn more than women and there's nothing anyone can or should do about it, the wage gap is feminist progaganda, and women would be happier if they could just learn to accept their naturally place in society. This of course, all backed up by a massive dose of evangelical Christianity. Not much for a feminist to find common ground with there I'm afraid. Even the trans stuff is coming from a different place - we want to unhitch gender from sex completely and let men be freely feminine, he opposes transgenderism because he wants gender to be inseparable from sex and thinks everyone should stay in their original box. The man is odious.

I think this is very spot on. I really like him in a certain way, but he definitely has these, shall we say conservative, views.

However, I feel that a) he doesn't hate women like other men who might have similar, negative, views actually do and b) if more men would listen to him, they would act a lot better in society, also towards women.

I would certainly prefer to live in a world shaped by his views, than the 'liberal' thought police view.

He's a misogynistic. Plenty of his illogical word salad on YouTube

Here's betting you haven't read or watched much of it, aside from especially selected clips, that you don't know much about him at all, and simply skimmed his work on a strictly superficial level only.

Oh, and I thought that Suzanne Moore’s tweet when it was revealed that he was seriously ill in rehab earlier this year was disgusting.

@Needmoresleep

Surely the point of hearing listening to someone who you don't necessarily expect to agree with, is that it helps you refine your own views.

Why do you disagree? What do you really think. Why do some arguments appear persuasive, but instinctively you don't agree with the conclusion?

Being able to think independently is an important skill. You can't develop it by simply listening to people in your echo chamber.

I think this should be printed, laminated and stuck up around the place in a ratio of 2:1 with COVID posters.

"Basically he sounds like another rehash of the argument that the ideal Gendered society is Somehow frozen in time around 1960 - everything before that is backwards and everything after that is “feminism gone too far”."

That is not accurate at all. Go ask him if he thinks society should revert back to the 1960s where women were overwhelmingly housewives. The answer will be no.

The point he is making is that the "wage gap" is 'natural'. True or not, it is different to your claim. Actual wage differences between men and women in the same jobs are now very narrow. The differences comes from women being in different industries and missing out on promotions. Challenge that, but don't make out like he wants women back at home.

Watched a lot of his stuff. He's interesting, but not as clever as he thinks he is. And I do get a whiff of misogyny from him, but that might be because the comments below his videos are jammed packed with MRAs.

That said, I'd take him over a woke cultist any day.

He seems a bit mental to me. I mean, only eating meat?!

I really don’t know much about him beyond the interview he did on Channel 4 with (can’t remember her name) and I thought he came across as intelligent, calm, measured, rational... but just a little bit creepy. I didn’t agree with everything he said but I respected his ability to articulate his points. It was a shame that the interviewer got herself into a bit of a flap instead of challenging him properly.

Why do MRAs and incels love him if he tells men to shape up etc?

I’m left wing and mostly enjoy listening to him. His book, however, was a bit preachy and smug.

He is usually well prepared for any counter arguments, but I found he was quite weak in countering a claim opposition/banning of abortion as not being a manifestation of patriarchy.