Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dr Jordan Peterson

232 replies

12boo · 02/07/2020 12:24

I believe I am a feminist
But I seem to be a fan of Jordan Peterson. Are these states totally incompatible?

OP posts:
Deathgrip · 06/07/2020 18:12

Fuck me, shawbles and Goosefoot. Thank you for so swiftly proving my point.

I’m out. I was so relieved when I found the community here - a group of women who seemed to understand the growing insanity of what’s been going on. And I’ve watched and watched as it’s gradually slid to a place of disturbing support for right wing fuckwits because they agree with you on this one issue.

What a bloody shame. As you were.

Shawbles · 06/07/2020 18:19

@Deathgrip

Fuck me, shawbles and Goosefoot. Thank you for so swiftly proving my point.

I’m out. I was so relieved when I found the community here - a group of women who seemed to understand the growing insanity of what’s been going on. And I’ve watched and watched as it’s gradually slid to a place of disturbing support for right wing fuckwits because they agree with you on this one issue.

What a bloody shame. As you were.

People have asked you to explain what your issues are with the passage you have quoted. I had a bash at guessing, albeit in language which I admitted was excessive but mostly for my own amusement. Otherwise you seem content to speak in vague allusions - both the unanalysed quote and "the growing insanity of what's been going", "they agree with you on this one issue". What has been going on ? What issue ?
Deathgrip · 06/07/2020 18:38

Please don’t play stupid. You know precisely what I mean.

Seeing a group of feminists praising a man worshipped by MRAs and Incels is like bad satire, except it’s real.

As for my other allusions, I think it’s pretty clear what I meant. Initially, two years ago or however long ago it was, I was delighted to find that there were a group of eminently reasonable feminists who could see through the aggressive element of trans activism for the misogyny it clearly is, without also being in agreement with the usual right wing attacks on this topic. It was good to see moderate or left wing people critiquing the blind acceptance of the attempts to redefine women.

When I saw those TRAs writing off these feminists as pawns for right-wing ideology, I thought that was ridiculous.

But I’ve watched as over time more and more posters here have been won over by right wing commentators - it started out as shared ground on this one topic, but seems to be leading to an increasing amount of acceptance of disturbingly misogynistic viewpoints simply because of that common ground. These people may share views on this topic, but it’s for wholly different reasons.

There are many posts in this thread excusing Peterson’s views and referencing his attempts to weasel out of what he said in that NY Times article. Have people actually read the original article?

This man is not on our side. I’m amazed this needs to be said.

If you genuinely don’t understand why that section is problematic I don’t know how to explain it to you.

Shawbles · 06/07/2020 18:41

Jesus, I hope you're not a teacher "if you don't understand it, I don't know how to explain it".

In my best JBP mode - how about you try to explain it, and I'll try to understand your explanation and then we can have a discussion ?

That seems more constructive than plonking the quote down there and attacking anyone who doesn't agree with you entirely (without even explaining what it is they're being expected to agree with).

12boo · 06/07/2020 18:51

Death grip
I
Do
Realise that some of what he says can initially sound problematic and I doubt I agree with everything he says. I really didn't understand what the article/ extract was saying. Are you suggesting that he was disbelieving the woman or victim blaming?
He definitely acknowledges that prejudice exists. He seems to court controversy but when I really listen to what he actually says I find it hard to find evidence to disagree with his statements
I'm sorry you're upset

OP posts:
12boo · 06/07/2020 18:55

And I struggle with my "attraction" to him because I'm aware it might be that I see an intelligent, confident attractive-imo- man and is that clouding my judgement?
When he argues against the existence of a tyrannical patriarchy part of me wants to say "fuck off mate" but
then I listen to the rest of what he says and it makes sense and seems reasonable
So conflicted
It's been a
Conflicted few days for me

OP posts:
12boo · 06/07/2020 19:02

I have always (since 6th form) considered myself left wing or at least left of centre and now I'm not sure
I don't think the left offers what I thought it did or claimed and certainly not the far left

OP posts:
Goosefoot · 06/07/2020 19:04

@Deathgrip

Fuck me, shawbles and Goosefoot. Thank you for so swiftly proving my point.

I’m out. I was so relieved when I found the community here - a group of women who seemed to understand the growing insanity of what’s been going on. And I’ve watched and watched as it’s gradually slid to a place of disturbing support for right wing fuckwits because they agree with you on this one issue.

What a bloody shame. As you were.

Asking how you would have understood the situation is proving your point?

Don't you think that suggests a little bit of a problem?

I understand that people don't always find it easy to express themselves clearly and when I'm being properly conscientious I try to see what people mean rather than getting stuck on exactly what they are saying. I'm not looking to jump all over you.

But if you won't saw what in particular you find problematic in that account? Do you think he made up the scenario? Do you think we should consider that kind of situation as rape? Is it how he suggests as the origins of her feelings?

There is not some 100% obviously right answer about rape and sexual assault that means there is never any need to talk about or discuss it. It would be strange if there were.

12boo · 06/07/2020 19:04

The only other person I watch as avidly atm is the wonderful (tragically late) Magdalen Berns
So maybe I just have "fan" issues

OP posts:
Shawbles · 06/07/2020 19:05

When he argues against the existence of a tyrannical patriarchy part of me wants to say "fuck off mate" but then I listen to the rest of what he says and it makes sense and seems reasonable

I'm sorry if I'm posting excessively, but this thread actually got me back into him and re-watching a few videos of his I'd not seen in a good while. The Helen Lewis / GQ one is excellent for this sort of stuff, as she talks about the patriarchy and privilege, but comes up pretty short when challenged as to how a women got such a good job inside of a patriarchy, or that she should resign and offer her job to someone less privileged she flat out refuses because she "doesn't want to and doesn't see why [she] should have to"

Goosefoot · 06/07/2020 19:06

Well, 12boo, I find him kind of anti-attractive, and I still agree with some of what he says.

Like some others I think he is most interesting in his own area of expertise. When he moves outside of it he is much more likely to say dumb things (as are we all really.)

12boo · 06/07/2020 19:07

@Shawbles

When he argues against the existence of a tyrannical patriarchy part of me wants to say "fuck off mate" but then I listen to the rest of what he says and it makes sense and seems reasonable

I'm sorry if I'm posting excessively, but this thread actually got me back into him and re-watching a few videos of his I'd not seen in a good while. The Helen Lewis / GQ one is excellent for this sort of stuff, as she talks about the patriarchy and privilege, but comes up pretty short when challenged as to how a women got such a good job inside of a patriarchy, or that she should resign and offer her job to someone less privileged she flat out refuses because she "doesn't want to and doesn't see why [she] should have to"

Yes I saw that Obviously her position does not mean that there isn't prejudice or that women are Not disadvantaged But then he went on to acknowledge that (in a way)
OP posts:
12boo · 06/07/2020 19:09

"Anti attractive" 😆

OP posts:
12boo · 06/07/2020 19:11

I don't think you're posting excessively Shawbles
Tbh I'm tempted to open a bottle of wine, give you my phone number and chew the fat over this into the night

Oops

OP posts:
Shawbles · 06/07/2020 19:13

Yes, and I think that is the biggest point he makes (without really remembering if he ever makes it explicitly) - that all of these great identitarian social issues are actually damn complex and reducing it to one thing (gender in this case) is ridiculous.

hamstersarse · 06/07/2020 19:40

I get what deathgrip is getting at with the passage about the rape.

It's really tricky ground within 'traditional' feminist narrative. At first glance it reads that he doesn't understand what has happened, perhaps doesn't believe her. And that has caused women so many issues throughout history.

But having listened to him talk about this client of his, it is always said in the context of something very specific and that is around women being more in control and responsible for their own lives. Again, I know that is spiky, but you have to follow through with this thought and see which scenarios actually help women most.

I know when I was in an abusive marriage, it didn't help me to just sympathise, call him a bastard and blame it all on him. It didn't move me forward much, somewhat, in that it allowed me to know it wasn't me going mad. What actually really helped me was to question myself on why I had let this happen. Somewhere along the way this has been labelled as victim blaming, but I know from personal experience it is not victim blaming, it is entirely the opposite, it is victim relieving. For me to move forward, I needed to know that I had some control over what happens to me. That I have the right to stand up and walk out etc.

That is what I read from that paragraph - a woman struggling to make sense of all these things that just happen to her. He is talking about encouraging her to take agency over these situations:

"She was a ghost of a person. She dressed, however, like a professional. She knew how to present herself, for first appearances … Miss S knew nothing about herself. She knew nothing about other individuals. She knew nothing about the world. She was a movie played out of focus"

That is a call for this woman to take control of her life.

I know what the trad fem argument will be to that - I have used it myself in the past - and it's "you can only blame the rapist for rape" and that is true, she is committing no crime. But this is about asking a women why she finds herself back at a man's house when she doesn't really want to and asking her if she could have any control over that.

12boo · 06/07/2020 19:48

Thank you hamstersarse that makes sense to me

OP posts:
Needmoresleep · 06/07/2020 20:14

hamster, wonderful post. Thank you.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 06/07/2020 20:15

I can't help wanting to see the context of those paragraphs quoted, because without that context sure, they can be read as damning -- but I can find damning things in most people's work if I go looking. Hellfires, it is the new national sport: find something someone has said, take it out of context, and use it to call for them to be cancelled, it's all the rage, it's being done to J K Rowling every minute of every day at the moment.

And just because people I dislike like something, that is not a good reason to condemn the thing they like out of hand, for me: I do not assume incels or MRAs to be intelligent enough to understand rigorous argument, and they might easily have latched onto something without understanding it at all.

Expecting the facile from an intellectual may be rash anyway: remember all the fuss some years back about the bishop who said things that were blasphemous? The newspaper critics had missed out the hypothetical at the beginning and quoted him straight as stating that the story of the birth of Christ was untrue, when what he had said was "IF the story (etc) were untrue" and gone on to ask what that would mean for Christianity. (Not a lot, I seem to remember was his conclusion.)

Goosefoot · 06/07/2020 20:17

It's really tricky ground within 'traditional' feminist narrative. At first glance it reads that he doesn't understand what has happened, perhaps doesn't believe her. And that has caused women so many issues throughout history.

But what has happened?

It's his description of what this women said, obviously, so maybe it's not accurate, but there is actually zero indication that she was coerced into sex in these scenarios.

To me it read as someone who had become so passive, who had no real principle of action, or even intent, that she felt like she hadn't actually made a decision to have sex. She was just going through the motions, so to speak.

If you combine that sort of mindset - and I've met people like that over the years, who live their lives drifting - with rhetoric about explicit consent and the idea that if you feel violated it means you have been raped, it seems entirely possible that someone like that might say - oh, wait, I didn't really mean all that to happen and I felt upset later, I must have been raped. It might be a relief because it would allow a sort of explanation for what was happening in her life, without needing to focus on what she really wants or believes in.

I know many people are uncomfortable with the idea that someone could be so lacking in self-reflection or self-conciousness - but don't we see examples of that all the time in other areas?

Total thought experiment really, but I wondered, reading the account, if this woman might not have been sexually abused as a child, which sometimes can result in that sort of passive response. If so, trying to attach her pain to these experiences as an adult might be a way of avoiding more real and disturbing thoughts.

Obviously if the description is false, none of that applies, but I don't see why we'd assume that.

Needmoresleep · 06/07/2020 20:30

So it is better to give people agency rather than victim hood.

I can see eminent Victorians like Octavia Hill nodding in agreement.

Shawbles · 06/07/2020 20:31

And just because people I dislike like something, that is not a good reason to condemn the thing they like out of hand, for me: I do not assume incels or MRAs to be intelligent enough to understand rigorous argument, and they might easily have latched onto something without understanding it at all

Wow, I've just had to towel off my screen as that paragraph is absolutely dripping in condescension. And we wonder why public discourse might be becoming more polarised...

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 06/07/2020 20:41

If you can think of a reason why I, as a woman, should regard incels and MRAs as likeable, or assume they all have the intelligence to understand rigorous argument .... Well, I'd listen, but I wouldn't promise to agree.

Shawbles · 06/07/2020 20:46

Nah, I'm joshing.

As a man, I don't assume feminists to be intelligent enough to understand rigorous argument, and think they might easily latch onto things without understand it at all. So I get where you're coming from entirely.

Shawbles · 06/07/2020 20:47

@Shawbles

Nah, I'm joshing.

As a man, I don't assume feminists to be intelligent enough to understand rigorous argument, and think they might easily latch onto things without understand it at all. So I get where you're coming from entirely.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.