TWAW

[Billi77]

Thought it might be an idea to start a thread for women who support TWAW. I understand ‘Feminism chat’ should also include us and give us our own space?

Nope, sorry, not accepting that as an excuse. I'll give you 2/10 on the effort to dodge the point though.

I actually very rarely look at FWR because I find it frustrating and demoralising.

So maybe MN isn't for you.

Gina Ford wasn't a fan either.

However, you haven't addressed the issue which is changes to legislation and policy that make it impossible to talk about or protect women's rights (including women who are currently legally regarded as women because they have a GRC).

Have you seen all the many threads on prostitution, surrogacy and child safeguarding? Go and have a look. This board is far from all trans - but it does focus on the most significant risks to women and girls.

Transideology is a huge risk to women and girls (not transpeople, the ideology which seeks to remove women's rights).

its funny my two closest friends work in womens aid sector- they both say its a massive massive issue that is over-clouding everything they are trying to do at the moment- they are walking an absolute tightrope and under increasing pressure to centre tw- it is a hugely divisive issue within the sector- and those who believe in womens spaces are being bullied to shut up.

funny how different people notice different things.

Being here is a choice. Campaigning is a choice. Denigrating other people’s choices is a choice.

It feels like tag team derailing in this thread. It’s unusual that it has not been deleted yet. I hope we can keep it that way.

There was also a thread a while back on the lack of care given to pregnant women prisoners and the risks and harms as a result. Did you contribute to that thread? It wasn't that long ago. It was horrifying.

So basically if a woman was traumatised at the sight or knowledge of a penis owner they would have to be the ones to leave?

It would always be the choice of a resident if they left or not. But we wouldn’t force a trans woman who had been raped to leave.

We support women who are the victims of rape. Our policy is to include trans women in that. This has never yet been a source of contention or difficulty.

Indeed, Helmet. I know a local shelter that's run by a Catholic group that's having massive issues with this because what local laws say they should do goes against both what their experience providing service says they should do and what their religion says they should do.

still not going to define what a woman is then

@Kit19

still not going to define what a woman is then

Keep at it, Kit. I admire the tenacity

This is indeed the policy of some shelters, as has been discussed here previously. Presumably Clueless would like us to shut up about that too

This is why they never answer the question about what a woman is.

Because despite all their long words and carefully written out posts etc the definition of woman once and for all would show the world that indeed , that even in sports or refuges and their spaces fought for by women for women and money raised by women that the women are being turned out to hand over their rightful spaces to...... the M word

ive worked in advocacy for a long time, and what ive found is that vulnerable traumatised people are very unlikley to complain because they fear they will lose the ony support they have.

the idea that because no one complains everyone is happy is why we end up with so many scandals in public services

This thread moved fast since I last checked it. A couple of points though:

Karen White should never have entered a womens prison.

This is a meaningless statement unless you can offer a definition of "womens."

Karen White should never have entered the female estate; nor should any other transwoman, because they're not female. Which class of person do the twaw-supporters believe "women's prisons" are intended for?

If transwomen are women then many women are not women [...] And there is no name for them at all.

Speaking from experience, there is one name they give us, and that is "terf." We get upgraded to "transman" if we deny our sex, but if we don't, then it's either the t-slur or some variation on "cishet bigot".

Based on common usage, "terf" is the bottom of the pile when it comes to gender identities; it's the only one that's considered utterly reprehensible and just cause for a raping, while all the others are celebrated.

But, what if it WAS only a word? If we managed to somehow all agree that 'woman' could be claimed by all, but safe spaces and sport were protected for cis women, would that be enough?

I'm not a cis woman; I react with visceral horror and distress at others identifying me as a site of femininity and all that entails. Safe spaces for "cis women" would exclude me. Where am I then supposed to go?

Besides, 'woman' cannot be "claimed by all" when you're using it denote "people who perform femininity" - you're not widening the definition, you're just shifting the goalposts in a direction that excludes non-conforming women in order to make room for men. This is sexism.

Clueless, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you actually work in the job you say you do. Has it occurred to you that, if you get it wrong, you won't be the person who suffers male violence at the hands of a fake tw who self identified into your safe space using legislation that allows males to identify as women? Is your imagination really so dimmed that you can't for see such a situation? If so, you're in no position to protect anyone.

We support women who are the victims of rape. Our policy is to include trans women in that. This has never yet been a source of contention or difficulty.

There is no reason that your centre should include everyone. Your policy means that you are including some and excluding others. That isn't a problem. Pretty much every charity and service excludes somebody. The problem would be if changes to legislation made any provision of single sex services impossible.

We support women who are the victims of rape. Our policy is to include trans women in that. This has never yet been a source of contention or difficulty

Do you not think when women are abused raoed and at the lowest points if their lives that they have the energy to fight you on this. They already know the answer through the fact the person is there already. Why is the onus on victims to speak up even when the space is supposed to be for them.

And do you not ever wonder how many stayed home with their abusers or never came to you because they know they cant be garunteed a penis free space.

the idea that because no one complains everyone is happy is why we end up with so many scandals in public services

And who's going to complain to someone who keeps insisting that no problem exists? Sometimes the things that other people don't talk to you about tells you a lot about the extent to which they consider you worthy of trust.

So maybe MN isn't for you.

Indeed it isn’t, and sometimes when it affects my mental health too badly I leave for a few months.

I like to contribute to these threads every now and then. Not because I hope or expect to change the mind of anyone I argue with - I know all about how futile it is to try and win an argument on the internet (www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.avclub.com/why-you-cannot-win-an-argument-on-the-internet-accordi-1798255937/amp) but because I think it’s important to show now and then for anyone watching the thread (particularly someone affected by the discussion at hand) that there’s more than just an echo chamber.

I actually have to leave now because I have a meeting at one (a board meeting for the rape crisis centre, as it happens - I may mention this thread and see what the views of other members of the board are). Thank you for the discussion, and I look forward to checking back on this board and seeing evidence of the many other issues mumsnetters are campaigning about being reflected in the threads.

I have long since given up any hope or expectation that the mumsnet feminism board could be a place to discuss any issue without it descending into a gun fight about trans rights.

On the contrary. It is very possible to have a discussion about women's rights on this board without trans rights being brought into it. I have seen numerous. Surrogacy and prostitution for two recent threads.

Please stop calling being pro-women being phobic. As we keep pointing out, if you cannot retain precision in the definition of women and female, the rights that are conferred to this group due to their biological needs are diluted and ambiguous.

Rather than scolding women. Please tell us how you would tackle the many issues that the redefinition of women is causing.

How about sport as a simple place to start?

Or maybe the fact that FGM victims are losing their ability to describe what has been done to them because it is not inclusive. Are you ok that an organisation that is focused on preventing FGM could be hijacked to deal with circumcision (which deserves it's own support and activism).

So despite everything being harmonious in your rape refuge, would you be in favour of a rape refuge purely for trans women?

Because I think most women would not want any vulnerable trans person to suffer and have nowhere to go, but I am worried about natal women who might feel really threatened.

And I don't see it the same as being racist and not wanting to share a kitchen with a black woman - because the very nature of rape is that is is committed by a penis. Skin colour was never the source of their pain, so is irrelevant. Maybe women don't want a penis near them for a while afterwards?

I haven't been in that position, but I'm sure plenty have and will have an opinion.

Does anyone here remember that Katie Roiphe book where she argued at great length that feminists were exaggerating the extent to which rape is a problem on American college campuses? There's a reason the women she knew weren't talking to her about their experiences of rape too. People pick up on your attitudes and from there make decisions about whether or not it's safe to open up to you.

Clueless, I wish you had addressed the points I made about proposed changes to legislation making any single sex provision impossible, and abuse of academics.

I am really glad that you are providing a resource for trans women.

Unfortunately, your continued engagement with the points that you find easy to dismiss, rather than more difficult concerns about legislation, makes me feel that you weren't posting in good faith.

Clueless, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you actually work in the job you say you do. Has it occurred to you that, if you get it wrong, you won't be the person who suffers male violence at the hands of a fake tw who self identified into your safe space using legislation that allows males to identify as women? Is your imagination really so dimmed that you can't for see such a situation? If so, you're in no position to protect anyone.

It’s not my job, it’s a voluntary position. And if the legislation you’re referring to is self-ID, it changes nothing for us. We have been supporting trans women for decades without requiring a GRC.

We have rigorous safeguarding procedures which are executed by staff who undergo extensive training. We have never once in my many years of involvement had an incident of sexual violence towards a resident or staff member. Our processes are effective.

I really genuinely have to go now - many thanks for the discussion.

Its willful blindness. I think I actually have more respect for the tras. They're open about their hatred of women. This subterfuge and manipulation and evasion, its downright sinister.

Social Media becomes an echo chamber because it is easier to score points than to engage with difficult issues.