TWAW

[Billi77]

Thought it might be an idea to start a thread for women who support TWAW. I understand ‘Feminism chat’ should also include us and give us our own space?

I look forward to checking back on this board and seeing evidence of the many other issues mumsnetters are campaigning about being reflected in the threads.

Wonderful.

And yet, you still never once addressed the legal implications of the definition of women that underpin all the 'issues' you want mumsnetters to campaign for. Something I would have thought a board member would actually understand is quite necessary.

A male wouldn't need to actually assault me for me to be very uncomfortable with having them around if I had just been raped and was attempting to recover. Again, the bar for "enough harm caused to women to be worth taking into account" is set so, so high and the bar for "causes unacceptable inconvenience to transwomen" is set so, so low.

Social Media becomes an echo chamber because it is easier to score points than to engage with difficult issues.

This is so true. This is why slogans work so well. And gifs.

It occurs to me that the women who are saying no are the ones who have learned the hard way why it’s important. Learned that not having your boundaries respected is a red flag. Learned that someone who does not see you as having equal personhood is dangerous. Learned that if you can’t say no to someone it’s a red flag.

I’m genuinely happy for those who have not had those lessons. But perhaps listening to those who have been forced to learn from them would be beneficial.

Personally I'd be a bit concerned that someone who works in a rape crisis centre surely must know the stats that only something like 5 percent of rapes are reported and only what 1 percent? Of those end in a prosecution and still believes the fact that because nothing has been said nothing has happened or happening or will happen.

How is that thought process even possible

somehow i dont think that went as expected.....

Something I would have thought a board member would actually understand is quite necessary.

Clearly for this centre it isn't relevant because they have made the choice to provide a service that is not sex based.

However, other provision is also necessary.

I find it difficult to believe that the process of rehabilitating female victims of male sexual violence is not impacted by a mixed sex environment.

(Notices that rhetorical technique hasn't worked and now people are asking all sort of inconvenient questions, suddenly remembers urgent meeting.)

Indeed. Its all rosy in clueless world, but I bet its not, not really. The women just aren't speaking up out of fear. Imagine a raped and battered woman feeling fearful of losing her shelter space.

somehow i dont think that went as expected.....

It went exactly as they expected. Let's see: posted, scolded, evaded, used anecdotes and no stats or research, scolded some more, denigrated the board without trying to enact change, left.

I don’t think it went exactly as planned. We didn’t do anything that got the thread deleted.

How many posts are we on now?

Still no answer to 'what is a woman?' From any TWAW folk.

How surprised I am.

What's funny is that watching that same pattern play out over and over again seems to be a big part of what moves a lot of women from "I kind of have concerns about this but these women are all so mean and scary" to "shit, the witches were right all along".

Clueless indeed. How the hell are we supposed to talk about any feminist issue or women’s rights when there’s so much contention about what the term woman even means? Give us a non-circular definition of the term that doesn’t rely on gender stereotypes, includes both ‘cis’ and trans women and, accounts for sex-based oppression and then maybe we’ll starting taking your commitment to feminism seriously. You guys crow trans women are women, without any attempt at clarification or explanation, and expect us to care. Even Abrahamic religions try to explain their gobbledygook sometimes. The problem is that we can give you a proper definition of the word which is ‘adult human female’ but that of course doesn’t sit right with your lot because it’s ~exclusionary~. You’re the ones who are incoherent but instead of addressing that in your circles you’re policing actual feminists who understand what section of the population women’s rights apply to. It’s much easier to just deflect and attack and go tsk tsk, no?

The projection is real with the “gender critical feminists are anti-trans not pro-women” when all they’re doing is defending their sex-based rights. It’s your lot that is more concerned with those ~dangerous~ terfs instead of the men who kill trans women(who probably have never even heard of gender critical or radical feminism).

So it’s not that I don’t think there is a discussion to be had about women’s spaces. It’s that if a person’s focus is exclusively or overwhelmingly about the relationship between trans women and women’s spaces, with little or no awareness or passion for the much more significant and real threats that women already face and which have nothing to do with trans people, I know they’re coming from a place of prejudice towards trans people and not a place of genuine concern for women’s safety.*

I'll admit to having little awareness about a HUGE number of issues affecting women, especially vulnerable groups that I simply don't interact with (prisoners, for example). It's not that I don't care at all. It's due to - as I've talked about on another thread - as soon as you bring up anything affecting women, it devolves into 'but what about trans women? why are you not including them?' see e.g. FGM. The conversation has now been derailed by TRAs saying the F standing for Female is transphobic.

Women are less and less able to articulate the problems due to policing of language which means fewer people know about them. I genuinely believe this is hindering activism on so many worthwhile topics.

It's due to - as I've talked about on another thread - as soon as you bring up anything affecting women, it devolves into 'but what about trans women?

www.orchidproject.org/about-us/

This is a charity that works to end Female Genital Cutting. Google and you will find lots more information.

Why would your knowledge of any topic be limited to what is being discussed on MN?

Clueless if you're wondering why there are lots of trans issues on the first page of FWR, it's because in the last couple of weeks, several high-profile people have been in the news for being abused or kicked of SM platforms due to their GC beliefs, and the law in Scotland has been changed to remove the sex-based definition of women. Another GC forum was shut down yesterday.

People react to changes and people want to find out more - there have been loads of people coming here in the last couple of weeks saying 'I want to be kind to TW but what's all this about sex not being real?' etc.
You can't say you rarely come on here then tell us off for only talking about other topics when you're not looking/when there's not a HUGE media storm about speaking up about biological sex mattering.

I genuinely believe this is hindering activism on so many worthwhile topics.

You are not wrong there bishopgiggles.

I think that many that fully believe the slogan TW AW either have not understood the broadness of the implications or don't care that many rights are underpinned by language and definition. People's gender identity should have the right of protection against discrimination but not at the cost of sex based provisions that rely on the definition of the people they protect.

Is it wilfulness? Is it a determination to be inclusive at all costs? Is it simply that someone has drunk the coolaid?

Or am I really the one that does not understand that there is no implications at all?

I have genuinely looked to find articles, statistics and studies but everything has now become ambiguous or has been deemed transphobic so the research cannot be done or the articles are based on pseudo science. I have yet to see one person post a robust resource in their defence of saying there is no impact at all. I would have thought there would be lots being distributed after all the discussion over the past couple of weeks.

Nothing but tumbleweed and crickets.

Please. To anyone lurking who has some reference, please post it here. I'd like to believe that this was the original intention of Billi?

merry I'm not just talking about MN - sorry if that wasn't clear. I go on other forums, I follow TW on Twitter among other people. I look at local issues.
Wherever you get your news from, it will be affected by people no longer being able to articulate the problem, or actively minimising it.

I sit on the board for a rape crisis centre which has been effectively supporting women (including trans women) for decades.

I work with boards all the time. They are invariably distant from the actual operation of the business and made up of people so proud of themselves that they think they can add something useful a few days a year in a couple of carefully stage managed meetings.

You are here lecturing women on what their priorities should be with the same mindset, that your advice is important and relevant. It really isn't.

What is a woman?

Anyone?

Women are less and less able to articulate the problems due to policing of language which means fewer people know about them. I genuinely believe this is hindering activism on so many worthwhile topics

This, i do 3 types of real,life voluntary activities involving women. Guiding, an education ambassador specifically working with Girls and promoting a the women’s team for a contact sport.

I am backing away from the sport as the TWAW Mantra has a feverish grip. And it’s bloody dangerous ( I aren’t prepared to be sued when the shit hits the fan) I can’t raise any safety questions as I get shouted down TWAW therefore it does not matter that a 6 foot TW can flatten a player like a deckchair. Not a problem.

Girl guiding is a shitshow and I’ll quit the minute I get asked to take an intact male camping (again, aren’t prepared to be sued when the shit hits the fan)

Again, with the ambassador stuff, former males are pushing in, taking the assistance meant for girls. Males who have been socialised to expect to be good at the subject, males who have been socialised to expect to progress. In the career. Not the girls who actually have talent but have been socialised to believe they can’t do it. So I’m boosting an already privileged group, and I aren’t allowed to ‘see‘ the difference.

Damn right I’ve been driven to the only fucking place on the Internet im allowed to discuss this. Fuckers

many rights are underpinned by language and definition.

And as a very clear example of EXACTLY what happens when you give up words used to describe women and females, please look at the fact that now even the Minister for Women and Equalities has realised that certain lobby groups have misinterpreted the meaning of the Equality Act 2010 and have done significant damage to single sex spaces in many areas including the NHS.

Oh yes, telling women who follow and support the work of Julie Bindel, for example, that we don't care about the breadth of issues faced by incarcerated women, just because the example of males in female prisons was raised while discussing why this broader topic matters?

You are Ash Sarkar and I claim my 5 pounds.