TWAW

[Billi77]

Thought it might be an idea to start a thread for women who support TWAW. I understand ‘Feminism chat’ should also include us and give us our own space?

Please explain how objecting to increased risk for women is prejudice?

Please explain how supporting women’s right to have a member of the same sex perform smears or intimate care is prejudice?

Please explain why wanting accurate statistics recording sex so those statistics can do their job and address inequity is prejudice?

@CluelessBaker

I also wanted to ask how you manage in your rape shelter if a woman is uncomfortable with the presence of a male-bodied person.

In the shelter I am on the board for, women have their own rooms with en-suite bathrooms. I would have serious concerns about any shelter that expected its residents to share rooms with anyone, because the women we help are usually very vulnerable and need the security of having their own spaces which they can secure as and when they like.

So what about communal spaces? Presumably people don't confine themselves to their rooms? I think for some women, they would struggle even with that and may resort to either staying in their room with the door locked or moving out altogether - rather than risk being named transphobic or upsetting the trans service user and risking more male violence.

How do you make sure they are actually comfortable and what would you do if they weren't?

You can say whatever you like - ‘oh yeah, behind the scenes I’m doing loads on these other issues I’ve just never mentioned here’ - because this is an anonymous forum, but you can’t pretend that mumsnet is an empowering force for change when it comes to women’s rights when there is clear and overwhelming evidence that it’s not pro-woman, it’s just anti-trans

You may not be aware of the sheer range of people who come here, even if not all post. Journalists, politicians, media people, educators, activists of different sorts, lawyers, health professionals, parents...a whole gamut of society - each involved in actions in their own way and in their own field.

This is largely a board to discuss TRA activism and its negative and damaging impact on women and children. nobody is trying to disguise that. But if it wasn't for the forceful imposition of an unwelcome ideology then there would be little need for resistance, would there?

because this is an anonymous forum, but you can’t pretend that mumsnet is an empowering force for change when it comes to women’s rights when there is clear and overwhelming evidence that it’s not pro-woman, it’s just anti-trans.

What does 'pro-woman' mean, if nobody can explain what a woman is? How do you talk about any topic that would previously have been included under feminism? What topic can you discuss without adding the caveat that it doesn't only affect women?

define woman for us and we can talk about women's rights

Also - start a new thread. It’s called derailing. I’d be very interested in one on guard assaults in female prisons and one on your mixed sex refuge conducts impact assessments.

Where? There’s scant evidence of this on mumsnet. I’ve seen endless threads about writing to MPs and signing petitions and tweeting support for J K Rowling etc about trans rights but virtually nothing on any other issue.

This is because with something like "rape is bad and no-one in authority should do it" the majority of the population know this, know it's a criminal offence - most people (other than rapists) agree, it's even written into law and work contracts so therefore any work on enforcing that law more rigorously is better achieved on other platforms than social media.

On TWAW lots of people haven't thought about the inevitable consequences of the ideology so therefore platforms like this where discussion isn't shut down are helpful.

A thread which states 'prison guards shouldn't rape women prisoners' would consist of everyone agreeing. And do little to advance the cause.

You'll find a lot more activity on the site in general in areas where there is disagreement.

There are LOTS of threads on here about surrogacy and prostitution and safeguarding which are all areas where there are significant groups of people arguing against women's and children's rights.

A thread about 'the sky is blue' probably wouldn't achieve much either.

Mr Hambrook escalated to a campaign of sexual terror that made it difficult for the frightened, hearing-impaired woman to sleep at night, knowing Mr Hambrook’s room was just across the hall. He stalked her, isolating and cornering her in various rooms. On one occasion, he asked her to touch his breasts, and on another, he grabbed her hand and forcefully placed it on his genitals. He also spied on her as she was taking a shower, peering through a gap between door and frame Continue reading Transgender Person w/ Pedophilia & Rape History Sexually Attacks Women at Homeless Shelter: Christopher Hambrook | Women Are Human. Read more at: www.womenarehuman.com/male-trans-pedophilia-rape-history-sexually-attacks-women-at-homeless-shelter-christopher-hambrook/

This thread just shows that any attempt to talk about women's rights is labelled as transphobic.

Then it should stop masquerading as a feminism board and call itself what it is - an anti-trans board. Mumsnet should set up two separate boards and then anyone wanting to discuss feminism and women’s rights might have a chance of getting a look in

It is almost as if you have a micro-chip implnated which refuses to permit you to hear what is actually being said. this board is not an anti trans board, it is a board a dedicated to discussing the issue of TRA ideology and its negative impact on women and children.

That you cannot see that you are under the sway of an ideology...is the root of your difficulty, I suggest, in understanding what is going on here. Until you can stand outside of transgenderism as examine it, you will never be able to see it.

I'm really trying not to be facetious, but when academics face campaigns of abuse because they study the legal and philosophical implications of biological sex, the reasons that this topic is dominating this board seem obvious.

Also I'd argue that in terms of being a force for women's rights that goes far beyond FWR, and that by its very nature as a place women discuss pregnancy and childbirth and relationships and offer support to each other with all of those things the entire site is a vehicle for empowerment (OK, maybe not AIBU). If you're only looking at FWR your focus is very narrow and you don't understand the concept of empowerment as well as you think you do.

You don't believe anyone here cares about the issues you're prioritising. So what campaigns are you working on? Where are the stats? Links would be great. How many women are actually abused by prison guards and how will the abuse levels drop if tw with intact male bodies (85% keep 'em) are incarcerated with the women?

I think it might surprise you if people on here listed all the real-life work they do to advance women's rights. (Not that they should have to prove anything to anyone)

And I think most would say that - whatever area of women's rights they are furthering or supporting - they are impacted by trans ideology and demands.

So they are campaigning about FGM or domestic abuse...etc and finding they are being thwarted by language policing or legal issues around self-ID - and it is just so frustrating. And there is no where to let off steam about how much harder women's rights work is now - because of transphobia allegations and threats of job losses and ostracisation.

Women come on here to let off steam about this.

I'm really trying not to be facetious, but when academics face campaigns of abuse because they study the legal and philosophical implications of biological sex, the reasons that this topic is dominating this board seem obvious.

I'll take "topical" for 500, Bob!

In the shelter I am on the board for, women have their own rooms with en-suite bathrooms. I would have serious concerns about any shelter that expected its residents to share rooms with anyone, because the women we help are usually very vulnerable and need the security of having their own spaces which they can secure as and when they like.

Its great that you can provide this facility.

The legislation that enables single sex provision helps women where either this wouldn't be enough, or where resources are limited.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with including trans women in anything. It's just the sex based provision is also necessary.

So what about communal spaces? Presumably people don't confine themselves to their rooms? I think for some women, they would struggle even with that and may resort to either staying in their room with the door locked or moving out altogether - rather than risk being named transphobic or upsetting the trans service user and risking more male violence.

How do you make sure they are actually comfortable and what would you do if they weren't?

No, people don’t confine themselves to their rooms, not least because a lot of what we do is offering workshops and training to help women get back on their feet, get jobs etc. Our residents tend to find one another a huge source of support and companionship, and this includes trans residents.

If a resident has an issue with another resident, we address it. If the other resident’s behaviour is unreasonable then we take steps to stop that behaviour. If that doesn’t work, or if it is too serious a wrongdoing, then we ask the resident whose behaviour is the issue to leave. We might help them find alternative accommodation, or we might simply make them leave, depending on the circumstances. We’ve asked residents to leave in the past because they’ve been abusive to others, used drugs in an unsafe way, been violent to staff, etc. It’s rare, but it does happen.

If a resident is upset at the mere existence of another resident, and it has nothing to do with behaviour, we can’t fix it for them. In my years of involvement (I was a volunteer before I sat on the board) I’ve never known this happen with a trans resident, but we have had people object to sharing communal spaces with someone of a different race and once to someone of a different religion. If we can’t get the residents to accept that they have to coexist peacefully, we would help the resident who was unhappy find alternative accommodation.

If you're only looking at FWR your focus is very narrow and you don't understand the concept of empowerment as well as you think you do.

I actually very rarely look at FWR because I find it frustrating and demoralising.

Let's try turning your own rhetorical technique back at you, shall we, Clueless? A person who actually cared about the issue of women being raped by prison guards would start threads about that, create fundraisers and let people here know about them, generally do the work of bringing that issue as much attention as possible. But are you doing that? Nah, you're just telling the women here off about being too interested in pushing back against TRA overreaches, which would tend to indicate that you don't really care all that much about that issue at all.

(Kind of feel like I need a shower now, fuck knows how people behave like that and feel OK about doing so.)

So basically if a woman was traumatised at the sight or knowledge of a penis owner they would have to be the ones to leave?

so you're not going to define what a woman is then?

@CluelessBaker

Ah, the "it's already happening so what's the point in objecting to additional threats" angle.

Nope, this is not remotely what I am saying.

I am saying that if you characterise trans women as the single greatest threat to women’s rights, and give absolutely no time or attention to the far more significant threats women (including trans women) already face, then your motivations are clearly prejudice and not genuine concern for women.

Just to repeat what other PP's have said.

If you can no longer define the word women or female with precision, how is it that you can fight to uphold the legalities of WOMEN'S rights?

And please do not be so disingenuous to tell us that the definition of woman and female have not legal implications.

Campaigning on rape by prison guards won’t get you fired from your job, punched in Hyde Park or told to choke on a dick on Twitter, though, will it?

Does that help explain why so many women wish to discuss this matter more anonymously?

So basically if a woman was traumatised at the sight or knowledge of a penis owner they would have to be the ones to leave?

This is indeed the policy of some shelters, as has been discussed here previously. Presumably Clueless would like us to shut up about that too.

A person who actually cared about the issue of women being raped by prison guards would start threads about that, create fundraisers and let people here know about them, generally do the work of bringing that issue as much attention as possible.

I would have to have my head button up at the back to believe I could do this without the thread instantly being taken over by people saying ‘what about trans women in prisons?????’.

I have long since given up any hope or expectation that the mumsnet feminism board could be a place to discuss any issue without it descending into a gun fight about trans rights.