TWAW

[Billi77]

Thought it might be an idea to start a thread for women who support TWAW. I understand ‘Feminism chat’ should also include us and give us our own space?

I thin part of the problem is that we have a whole new generation of young people who have not been brought up with the women's movement, or the struggles of the past; they take all gains for granted, as if they have always been there....

Furthermore there is a culture in universities, now, and especially an on-line world in which young people shield themselves from alternative views, or views which do not align with the thinking of their tribe. They see danger in disagreement and have become so mentally and emotionally fragile that trigger warnings need to be issued, or disagreeable events cancelled or called out.

Just in the middle of reading The Coddling of The American Mind' - Well worth a read. It examines how this culture of safety'ism and feeling of 'imminent threat' has arisen. Relatively recently, really.....and TRA ideology certainly seems to be the apotheosis of it. Crazy times!

This is a thread with the title 'TWAW' which is why we're talking about Karen White. It doesn't mean we're not campaigning on other issues too.

Lots of us campaign for women across the board including for women in prison to be protected from rapey prison guards and for the crime of rape to be treated as a crime and for prosecutions to go up (really the only direction they could possibly go at this point).

But this is a thread about TW so that's why we're discussing it. What you're doing is trying to distract from the point we are all discussing in order to de-rail all the very good, factual, logical points.

Go and start a thread about rape by prison guards. I guarantee you'll get a lot of takers. What I would say is that there is general consensus that rape by prison guards is bad, a crime, definitely a fireable offense, and no-one is trying to say we should introduce policies that make it easier to allow prison guards to rape women prisoners with impunity. The same is not true of sex criminals who claim to be TW - there are policies being promoted and put in place to make it easier for violent, sexual predators to abuse women prisoners.

And I mean - I know what a woman is, but it needs a legal definition.

I also wanted to ask how you manage in your rape shelter if a woman is uncomfortable with the presence of a male-bodied person. Even if you have had no objections so far, how would you handle it if someone said they felt vulnerable and triggered by it?

@CluelessBaker

Ah, the "it's already happening so what's the point in objecting to additional threats" angle.

Nope, this is not remotely what I am saying.

I am saying that if you characterise trans women as the single greatest threat to women’s rights, and give absolutely no time or attention to the far more significant threats women (including trans women) already face, then your motivations are clearly prejudice and not genuine concern for women.

Men are the biggest threat to women, however they identify. There is evidence to show that male pattern violence applies to all men however they identify.

I actually do believe that the TRAs are the biggest threat to women because the logical extension of Self ID is to allow any man into women's safe spaces.

You know why Clueless. Have you been watching the news over the last few weeks? And theres very few places where GC women can discuss this in clear terms. That's why they are doing it here.

I do resent your implication.

It doesn't mean we're not campaigning on other issues too.

Where? There’s scant evidence of this on mumsnet. I’ve seen endless threads about writing to MPs and signing petitions and tweeting support for J K Rowling etc about trans rights but virtually nothing on any other issue.

You can say whatever you like - ‘oh yeah, behind the scenes I’m doing loads on these other issues I’ve just never mentioned here’ - because this is an anonymous forum, but you can’t pretend that mumsnet is an empowering force for change when it comes to women’s rights when there is clear and overwhelming evidence that it’s not pro-woman, it’s just anti-trans.

Even if you have had no objections so far, how would you handle it if someone said they felt vulnerable and triggered by it?

In the current climate, I think a woman would have to be very brave to do that.

if the word woman is redfined to include men who say they are women then any and all women's rights disappear

we will no longer have the language available to us to discuss any of the multiple issues affecting women because the word woman will no longer mean adult human female, it will mean "adult human female and some men"

this redefinition of the word woman to include men is the biggest single threat to women so yes it does dominate this board

Does anyone know of any recent statistics concerning rape of women by "prison guards" in British prisons. I haven't read or heard of any examples which is why they are not quoted KW is usually used as evidence. If there have been any cases of this, then I would suggest it is evidence that men should be removed from working in women's prisons in roles that would allow them unsupervised access to women prisoners.

I sit on the board for a rape crisis centre which has been effectively supporting women (including trans women) for decades. So believe me when I say it couldn’t be clearer to me that vulnerable women are being failed constantly by a movement which focuses on trans rights to the exclusion of virtually all other issues.

Great - you are providing a valuable service and it is really good that there are resources for trans women. No legislation prevents you from including trans women in any service.

However, some women, sometimes, need resources that exclude on the basis of sex.

That has nothing to do with their relative 'value' or 'authenticity'. Sex is not a mark of validity. Humans have value because they are humans, and that is that. Sex is just a simple neutral fact like blood type, the consequences of which prevent women from participating equally in society without access to specific resources and protections, regardless of their identity. The only way those resources can be protected is through legislation and collection of data, both of which need clear definitions.

The same is true for trans people. Without a clear definition of 'trans', there are no trans rights.

This board is focused mostly on trans issues because it's one of very few places where feminists can talk publicly about trans issues. Your attempt to twist that into an argument that the women on this board aren't working on any other issues is noted and will no doubt be given exactly the level of respect it deserves (ie none).

Do you see how frustrating it is to see the time, effort and talent of the feminist on these boards be ploughed endlessly into opposing trans rights at the obvious expense of countering the very serious threats women face from things which have fuck all to do with trans rights

What you seem to be unaware of is that for many years this board has been the only on-line place to come and discuss this particular issue - which is why many of the threads involve that. That doesn't mean women are not involved or interested in anything else.

I came here, for example, precisely for that reason. To discuss the issue of TRA ideology and its impact on society; on women, and on children. I would not call myself a radical feminist, either - certainly in the way that some might use the term. I see myself as a humanist, although one of the female sex - and very much aware of what that implies.

For years trans activists have attempted to silence any discussion at all......so please don't be surprised when you turn up to a forum which is largely meant as a platform to share, meet and discuss this very issue with others who have concerns. I'm not sure what else you expect to find?

Men are the biggest threat to women, however they identify. There is evidence to show that male pattern violence applies to all men however they identify.
That. And
It is firefighting.

We need a legal definition of woman to allow any laws that protect us to be enforceable.

So all else is pointless until we have 'woman' and 'female' pinned down to a definition that makes sense and isn't circular.

We can't argue for anything for 'women' until we know what a woman is.

I also wanted to ask how you manage in your rape shelter if a woman is uncomfortable with the presence of a male-bodied person.

In the shelter I am on the board for, women have their own rooms with en-suite bathrooms. I would have serious concerns about any shelter that expected its residents to share rooms with anyone, because the women we help are usually very vulnerable and need the security of having their own spaces which they can secure as and when they like.

What you seem to be unaware of is that for many years this board has been the only on-line place to come and discuss this particular issue - which is why many of the threads involve that. That doesn't mean women are not involved or interested in anything else

Then it should stop masquerading as a feminism board and call itself what it is - an anti-trans board. Mumsnet should set up two separate boards and then anyone wanting to discuss feminism and women’s rights might have a chance of getting a look in.

Can you evidence the statement you have made about prison guards CluelessBaker. I can find articles about this issue in the US (which is dreadful) but not in the UK, the concern here appears to be women prison guards being assaulted by trans identified males.

The women on this board aren't even all feminists, not any more. We have women from all points on the political spectrum coming together to discuss an issue that has an impact on all of us. We're not going to stop because some random turns up with a list of shouty demands about what they'd like us to spend our time on.

Which womens rights?

See that's where the definition is helpful isnt it?

You cant do anything if you cant define who you are doing it for.

@CluelessBaker

Just to illustrate my point, of the 50 threads on the first page of this boards, 38 of them are about transgenderism, and those that aren’t generally have far less engagement that those that are.

Don’t tell me you care just as much about non-trans issues affecting women. They don’t even get a look in on this board.

And right you are!! This is discussed in great detail here because it is that HUGE and pervasive.

I think that you will find that the threads cover the perspectives of

• misogyny (eg. MP's article about JKR 'weaponising' her assault
• RSE toolkits (and making sure some of the dire examples provided by, I am sure, well-intentioned lobby groups are actually suitable)
• surrogacy and the fact that women who are carrying these children are also being dehumanised as service providers (further erasure of the role that women play in society)
• the shutting down of free speech that has been perpetuated by the trans activist movement and it is now hitting mainstream that this is not ok and there are a flush of articles discussing this so there are a flush of new threads discussing these articles
• the appropriation of women's wombs and gestating babies in transplanted wombs in transwomen.

And a couple discussing the actual meaning of feminism

So, yes. To someone who wishes to take issue at a superficial level, the last slew of threads may seem to be focused on transgender topics. Because this is entirely the result of shutting women up and telling women that they can no longer define themselves based on their biology and the needs that arise from that.

Clueless why is it anti trans to seek to protect women's safe spaces, access to sport, sex based rights etc?

Where? There’s scant evidence of this on mumsnet. I’ve seen endless threads about writing to MPs and signing petitions and tweeting support for J K Rowling etc about trans rights but virtually nothing on any other issue

In real life; off-line; in the work place; in schools; in parliament.

As you must surely know meetings in the real world concerning this issue are often disrupted or cancelled by TRA activists; and people have become afraid to speak out in their workplace, or even on-line.This board on Mumsnet is one place that we can come and discuss relatively freely - and where we can make connections with others, and then meet up in real life. conferences, events, groups, actions and so on.

You know there is a world outside of social media. A world in which real political action is taken.......

You want to talk about women's issues and rights, but at the same time you think any man who identifies as a woman is a woman?

Its just utterly ridiculous.

And it would be great if women could fight for the fights we should be fighting. Instead, we're stuck as women's rights are being rolled back around us. This fight isn't going to lead to progress - its a waste of everyone's time and energy - but if we don't fight it then women's rights are finished.

And yes, I would like to see a thread about the rape of women in UK prisons by male prison guards too. We are all for learning here and if it is being not addressed, I am sure that an MP such as Baroness Nicholson would love to become involved to work to fix this issue.

Also worth noting for those who Clueless may be hoping aren't aware of this - many shelters do expect the women they help to share rooms, and I know of at least one in Vancouver that had women sharing rooms with transwomen. The reason I know this is that one of the transwomen who women were being expected to room with posted photos of themselves with their cock out while stating their determination to walk around the shared space in a state of undress.

No point shouting abuse at me, btw, it's water off a duck's back at this point and will have no impact at all.