Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TWAW

999 replies

Billi77 · 28/06/2020 22:15

Thought it might be an idea to start a thread for women who support TWAW. I understand ‘Feminism chat’ should also include us and give us our own space?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
HollowTalk · 29/06/2020 09:29

@bishopgiggles

Is the reason you can't see feminine males as men because you hold preconceptions of what men should act like/look like/behave like?
Excellent point.
justanotherneighinparadise · 29/06/2020 09:29

@GinUnicorn

I’d be called a terf but I do consider myself trans inclusive. I support trans rights to housing, medication employment without discrimination. I would join then to prevent human rights abuse. However I don't believe TM are men or TW are women.

I used to say it though. I like you had trans friends and saw them as their assigned gender. I also wanted to be kind. Even though I know biologically it’s a lie I wanted to include marginalised trans women.

A few things changed this. Partially mumsnet. I came to the feminist boards believing everyone was transphobic. Instead I saw very real concerns and empathy.

I then did the research and found despite my wonderful friend being a woman in my eyes a huge amount of Tw never have surgery. It made me realise essentially I was supporting someone with male genitalia having access to vulnerable women. The more I looked here and Twitter the more very valid concerns I uncovered.

I personally don’t care about toilets but other women’s consent is not mine to give.

Should women have the right to l:
Single sex spaces such as
Changing without encountering a penis
Toilets
Hospital wards

Should we have the right to smear tests by a woman not someone who identifies

Should women’s sport be protected.

Ultimately if we can’t be clear about what a woman is how can we fight sexism. Women are oppressed worldwide because of our reproductive biology.

Collapsing two distinct demographic groups ie women and trans women helps no one. The best thing in my mind is spaces for apl

I feel exactly the same! I only entered these boards as they’d pop up regularly on Active Threads and i’d end up reading (probably out of boredom).

I’ve seen the debate get more and more divisive and I feel totally sick regarding the traction such a small group of aggressive activists have made to the detriment of our kids safety. I honestly believe most parents have no clue what’s going on. No clue whatsoever. They’re bogged down in the minutiae of life and distracted by their phones. But once those kids start coming home and talking about what’s happened in school that day I expect many parents are going to lose their mind.

I’m in this for the long haul. I’m always happy to wait for the side to turn and it will. So I’ll sit quietly and wait Grin

justanotherneighinparadise · 29/06/2020 09:38

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MondayYogurt · 29/06/2020 09:49

I really wish there was a way to separate AGP from the trans umbrella and educate people about the differences.
I feel as if AGP transwomen are using the rest of the trans group as cover.
Most people think of Kinky Boots or Priscilla Queen of the Desert or Transamerica (film) or Drag Race or OITNB for their ideas of transwomen. So benign and safe and family friendly.
It seems as if it's only recently when AGP has become far more popular that the colonisation issues have arisen. How did we all get along for years before this?
For me it boils down to this, if someone with a penis is aroused by acting female (and having sex with women) then that is totally different from someone post-surgery who just wants to pee and get on with life.
I'm not an accessory to a fetish.

HH160bpm · 29/06/2020 09:50

I don’t see why lumping two groups together who are victims of discrimination for completely different reasons is useful or practical.

I don’t see how a group campaigning for healthcare equality for female bodies can do that if it includes male bodies.

I don’t see how groups campaigning against female genital mutilation can do that if they include male bodies.

I don’t see how groups campaigning about female reproductive rights can do that if male bodies are included.

I don’t see how the myriad sex based reasons which contribute to women being treated as not equal at work or at home can be fought if sex becomes gender.

Not one of these aims are anti-trans they are specifically female. Recognising differences is important, differentiation is important. I don’t need to be included in campaigns for trans healthcare, those issues are not my issues and forcing that to include female healthcare issues would dilute and confuse the message. The able bodied do not have the same issues as the disabled and within the disabled class groups have different needs and aims. In fact this has been a key part of work done over the last few decades to achieve appropriate differentiation.

Recently the idea of not seeing colour has been widely debated with the fundamental take being not seeing colour is damaging as it fails to take into account the structural and societal prejudice that exists. I believe sex is the same. Everyone should have human rights. No one should be discriminated against due to their protected characteristic(s). We must recognise what those are and deal with each as a class in order to achieve that including using the framework of impact assessments to avoid diminishing one group while trying to help another.

LostMyMindAgain · 29/06/2020 09:54

I know a few transsexual TW, OP.

They don't believe that TWAW either. They recognise/feel that their life experiences through being born, growing up and socialised as male are different to mine as someone who was born, grew up and socialised as female. We've had quite candid conversations about it. More than one of them has said that if they'd just been allowed to express the 'feminine' aspects of themselves without being mocked and ridiculed (by other boys) for it and had just been allowed to be the boy they were, they probably wouldn't have transitioned.

They found solace at school with the girls who just accepted them for the person they were without reference to them getting being a boy wrong and they felt safer and more comfortable and so began to 'see' themselves as a girl as a result because that was their peer group. It's where they felt 'at home'.

They are all equally horrified with the current TWAW mantra and the violence with which women are threatened for defending their own sex.

All of them have used women's toilets over the years - largely through fear of the way they will be treated in the men's. Yet they also respect the women whose spaces they share. They have no desire to intimidate women or exert any power or authority. They simply go in, wee, brush their hair and touch up their lipstick. They know many women will recognise them as male and so they keep their heads down, don't aim to draw attention to themselves and then leave, hoping they will go unnoticed, knowing they probably were noticed and hoping that women will be reassured by the fact that they tried. They're scared to use the men's. They would welcome a third space because the whole process makes them uncomfortable. They don't believe women should be threatened and forced into accepting them against our will. They understand only too well why women might not want this.

I have encountered many TW in toilets over the years. If I catch their eye at all, I smile as I would do to an unknown woman and get on with my day. I am, however, hypervigilant for any changes in their behaviour that are more typically found in men rather than women and I don't do that when I encounter unknown women. Because I recognise the threat that males can potentially pose to women that have nothing to do with their presentation/appearance. They know this and completely understand.

They know that biology matters. They don't claim to have periods or experience the menopause. They have no issue with women discussing these, and other, aspects of themselves. They wouldn't presume to be part of it and only discuss the aspects of femininity they can share - eg the pain of high heels after a night out; make up; manicures;and getting their hair done. However, they don't consider that these things make them women. After all, I never wear heels or make up and I'm still a woman. Just not an especially feminine one.

They are angry, saddened and dismayed by this current trend and the TRAs - many of whom aren't T themselves and are just using it as a way to angrily exert authority over women. They don't believe that TWAW. They believe that TWATW.

They don't believe that males can be lesbians; they don't agree with self id for a number of reasons; they are horrified by the threats of violence and aggression towards women in the name of TWAW both because they know how it feels to be threatened by big angry men who have no respect for you and because they are aware women will come to view them as the same. They don't want women to fear them but they understand why we (now) do.

As for being treated 'like a woman' which is often (rightly) met on this board with 'how can you be treated/feel like a woman? " they all agree that 'like a woman' really only means feeling intimidated and fearful of men who may wish to cause you harm; is experienced when talking to women about things such as make up, hair and shoes that they can't typically discuss with men; happens when being objectified for your perceived woman-ness; and your voice not being 'heard'. Afterall, the trans movement aggressively silences these people as it does women.

They do not believe TWAW and they see the problem as being male violence and not that women don't include them in feminism.

NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 29/06/2020 09:57

Hmm, I’m not sure this is going to work.

Well, you're right about one thing @Billi77

justanotherneighinparadise · 29/06/2020 10:00

Recently the idea of not seeing colour has been widely debated with the fundamental take being not seeing colour is damaging as it fails to take into account the structural and societal prejudice that exists.

Wow that’s so true! I recently watched a very old Oprah episode where they were discussing the adage of ‘not seeing colour’. How it’s used as a way to disregard black people and their culture and allows racism is continue.

So we are to accept TWAW but then choose to not see the beard and penis. We just see the soul and essence of the person instead? It’s pretty wishy washy and actually undermines the individual’s story.

justanotherneighinparadise · 29/06/2020 10:01

Shit I’ve no idea what I said wrong in that deleted post!! 🤦🏻‍♀️

Mermoose · 29/06/2020 10:04

TWAW means that people are the opposite sex to what they are, doesn't it?

NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 29/06/2020 10:05

I don’t feel the same about everyone who claims to be trans, no.
I see the Karen White story as another horrific story about a male rapist rather than a story about a trans woman
I don’t know enough about Yaniv to hold any strong opinions.
I try not to engage in stories about mentally ill individuals who have entered to debate to enable a wider angle on things.

So your theory that TWAW comes down to: they are if they're nice. Your friends are but Karen White isn't.

Sorry, it just doesn't work like that. It's not about how lovely you are or how many kittens you've saved from being stomped (sorry: piss take Dragon's Den reference there).

I'm a woman: generally a nice one but, hey, I have my moments Blush But I'll always be a woman. Transwomen will never be women.

PumbaasCucumbas · 29/06/2020 10:05

Great post HH160bpm

The more you consider it, the notion that people can change their biological sex causes more and more problems, it’s like telling one lie and then having to come up with a 1000 more to cover the first lie.

If we take the view that a “woman is anyone who identifies as a woman” then why doesn’t the same apply to ‘toddler’, ‘cross channel swimmer’ or ‘heart surgeon’. We know that it would be potentially harmful to allow anyone to identify into these categories, however earnestly they felt or believed it.

I think most people want to support trans people to live their best lives in safety, but kindness also involves being truthful and not trampling the rights of women to achieve this.

HH160bpm · 29/06/2020 10:13

Not recognising all of say, female, disabled, lesbian, religious and BAME results in missing reasons for discrimination and then missing opportunities to counter discrimination. Who wants that? We are living the results of women having to behave like old-school men in order to succeed at work, it’s not a success story for women as a class.

Beerincomechampagnetastes · 29/06/2020 10:23

Not sure why I’ve been deleted either Confused

3rdNamechange · 29/06/2020 10:24

@Billi77 it hasn't gone well for you has it ? You need better , stronger arguments (or just one) to come on here and say that I'm afraid.
TW are men who want to live as women. You can't change biology, sorry.

HH160bpm · 29/06/2020 10:35

Don’t ask don’t tell in the American military was repealed because it was discriminatory and damaging. Let’s not forget it was expanded to "don't ask, don't tell, don't pursue, don't harass". Didn’t work. Why are we being encouraged to follow a similar model for trans people when it is known to be flawed?

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 29/06/2020 10:41

Again, why does not being overtly masculine mean that an adult male human is not a man? Why does the cultural conception of masculinity have to be so pathetically narrow that any man who makes those who're emotionally attached to gender roles uncomfortable needs to be excluded from the category "man"? It wasn't always this way.

justanotherneighinparadise · 29/06/2020 10:41

@Beerincomechampagnetastes

Not sure why I’ve been deleted either Confused
I figured mine out and actually I can see now why it was deleted. Apologies @MNHQ. Will try my hardest not to fuck up again!
Doyoumind · 29/06/2020 10:49

If people are being deleted, it's a sign that you are being reported, which is a sign that the thread is being monitored for these kinds of opportunities because 3 strikes and you're out.

LonginesPrime · 29/06/2020 10:51

Billi77 it hasn't gone well for you has it ?

I doubt Billi gives a shit - it's taken feminists' time, energy and attention away from issues that matter so I'd imagine that's mission accomplished.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 29/06/2020 10:51

Pretty obvious that was the goal from the beginning.

HH160bpm · 29/06/2020 10:52

Women were loud and proud about being unashamedly female during 70s activism.

Gay men, lesbian women and bisexuals were loud and proud about being bisexual/homosexual from the 70s activism onwards.

Why are trans people not campaigning in the same way? To be recognised and accepted as the unique group that they are? Why are they campaigning to become an indistinguishable part of two existing binary sex groups while the non-binary part of their group clearly do not want to be part of the binary?

TyroSaysMeow · 29/06/2020 10:53

No one is willing to define either 'woman' or 'transwoman'.

Not only do people refuse to define their terms, they also refuse to engage when we attempt to infer definitions from their usage.

I pay quite careful attention when people who believe twaw are talking, to how they use these words. As I mentioned upthread, "woman" may be a word that twaw-believers cannot define, but whatever it is, they use "trans" to denote a male variant of the phenomenon (which would be fine, except they can't describe that phenomenon beyond insisting it comes in male and female variants).

And of course, as Tinsel noted upthread, this usage reinforces the inference that "woman" is being used to refer to performers of patriarchal feminine beauty standards. Which is sexist, but when we mention that, it's tumbleweed all the way.

There is a part of me that is tempted to start reporting instances of this usage for sexism. Would the complaint be upheld, I wonder?

justanotherneighinparadise · 29/06/2020 10:56

@Doyoumind

If people are being deleted, it's a sign that you are being reported, which is a sign that the thread is being monitored for these kinds of opportunities because 3 strikes and you're out.
Well of course, but we’re not afraid to debate and we’re trying our best to do so respectfully and within the terms and conditions of the board.
RufustheRowlingReindeer · 29/06/2020 10:56

which is a sign that the thread is being monitored for these kinds of opportunities

Oh yeah

Swipe left for the next trending thread