TWAW

[Billi77]

Thought it might be an idea to start a thread for women who support TWAW. I understand ‘Feminism chat’ should also include us and give us our own space?

Asking people to define 'woman' is really not a 'gotcha' question.

I come from a legal background. Every time I draw up a legal agreement I have to include a set of definitions of certain words at the beginning of the agreement so all signatories know exactly what they are agreeing to.

I understand the word 'woman' to mean 'adult human female'. Not all people accept this definition. However, if spaces must be thrown open to include 'all women', which includes people other than adult human females, who does this include?

You cannot protect women's rights in law if you cannot define a 'woman' in words.

I am newish to this debate (been lurking about 6 months) and I have seen this question asked many times and never ever answered properly. By 'properly' I mean a definition that is not circular.

@LokiOdinson

It just seems like such a waste of time for you and everybody else who attempted to engage with you in good faith.

A good portion of what I saw was people engaging in bad faith, like "oh, go on then, do xyz and prove it to us"

and the quoted post above where I stated something and it got completely taken out of context to portray me as a bad person making lesbophobic claims.

Asking people to back up their assertion isn't bad faith, it's a request to debate. Which isn't really unusual on a chat board.

The TWAW debate seems like a form of thought censorship.

As humans, as women, we can identify biological sex even when the person has had extensive surgery or hormone treatment. This might be a bit woo woo, but I suspect it is an instinctual / primative brain thing.

I am not going to start censoring my own thoughts with regards to the true sex of people.

@Billi77

I don’t want to divulge too much about my background but am willing to answer questions I feel to be relevant. Am also happy to discuss why I believe TWAW based on personal experience.

But mostly I’m keen to meet feminists online who are trans-inclusive as I have heard a lot from those who are not . Given my RL experience outside of my immediate social circles, this feels massively disproportionate.

We include transmen because they were born female, so I'm not sure what your point it.

Totally trans inclusive

Transpeople should have as much support as necessary to live their lives complete and free of discrimination. Transpeople deserve full human rights. This may include additional rights to help them achieve that, just as is granted to women today. And should a campaign ever be launched by the trans community to get additional rights to overcome any injustice, you many count on my support

In addition, Transmen should be allowed all rights currently given to women to help them achieve their human rights

More from the stupid things that people on the TWAW side believe files, from a response to Rowling's comments in response to the double barrelled Labour MP who accused her of "using" her history of abuse to hurt trans people (just like someone did right on this thread to a commenter here).

There is a small minority with a genetic disorder that changes their hormone processing and makes them feel dysphoria (This is a medical issue)

Why bother with actual science when you can just make shit up?

What is a woman?

Please answer this simple question.

Well what I’ve learned from this thread is that when people say ‘trans women are women’ what they actually mean is ‘transwomen are women (well, not really obviously but if I know them personally and want to #bekind then I’m willing to go along with it because it’s just easier) but that some transwomen aren’t women because they’re not true transwomen because they make everyone else look bad’- is that about right OP?

I was the same EdgeOfACoin I used to lurk on these boards for ages readigg debates like these, back when I didn't really know much about it. I thought that since so many people were saying TWAW including major organisations and government bodies, that someone would be able to answer the question "what is a woman? How do you define it to include TW" But no one ever has, nothing that isn't circular anyway. I was so shocked because its such a foundational question in the whole debate, but eventually I realised that no one actually has an answer and this whole thing is just completely faith based. All I've ever wanted from these debates is for people to state clearly what they believe and why, and be willing to define the terms they're using - same as I expect when I debate theists. But they never do.

It really just drives home to me how desperate humans are to cling to these dualistic belief systems. That there can't just be physical bodies in a physical world, there has to be these souls or identities or essences that are the "real us" and these get "born into" our bodies like a sort of animating force and are the only true and meaningful things about us. It's no different to a theistic soul belief in that regard. However there isn't (yet) any connected beliefs about a higher entity/diety that gives us these "identities", and I haven't heard anyone arguing for the idea that they go on after we die, so I think it's probably closer to the never defined concept of "spiritualism" rather than a true religion, where people will say things like "I just feel like there's something more out there" and have ideas about spirits getting "trapped" or reincarnated. I expect within the next decade or so for this to all develop into a more mature theological framework with some more defined tenants and texts attached to it. Hopefully at that point we'll be able to classify it along with the other religions and beliefs and include it in the curriculum (if we must) under RE rather than science or PSHE. I have yet to hear an argument from TRAs that I haven't heard in some form from religious apologetics. It's actually really fascinating.

I’d be called a terf but I do consider myself trans inclusive. I support trans rights to housing, medication employment without discrimination. I would join then to prevent human rights abuse. However I don't believe TM are men or TW are women.

I used to say it though. I like you had trans friends and saw them as their assigned gender. I also wanted to be kind. Even though I know biologically it’s a lie I wanted to include marginalised trans women.

A few things changed this. Partially mumsnet. I came to the feminist boards believing everyone was transphobic. Instead I saw very real concerns and empathy.

I then did the research and found despite my wonderful friend being a woman in my eyes a huge amount of Tw never have surgery. It made me realise essentially I was supporting someone with male genitalia having access to vulnerable women. The more I looked here and Twitter the more very valid concerns I uncovered.

I personally don’t care about toilets but other women’s consent is not mine to give.

Should women have the right to l:
Single sex spaces such as
Changing without encountering a penis
Toilets
Hospital wards

Should we have the right to smear tests by a woman not someone who identifies

Should women’s sport be protected.

Ultimately if we can’t be clear about what a woman is how can we fight sexism. Women are oppressed worldwide because of our reproductive biology.

Collapsing two distinct demographic groups ie women and trans women helps no one. The best thing in my mind is spaces for apl

Nobody is able to define 'transwoman' either. You could be talking about a biological male with severe gender dysphoria who has had full top and bottom surgery. You could also be talking about a biological male who dresses in pink twice a week and wins awards for being a woman in business (Philip / Pippa Bunce).

No one is willing to define either 'woman' or 'transwoman'.

I wonder why.

What I got from the OP's answer (and I may be reading between the lines) is what they mean by TWAW is that the woman part is notional title so as to be kind and not hurt feelings. They don't literally mean that TWAW.

Saying it may be nice, it may be kind but it is a false assertion and helps no one. In fact it does does more harm than good. Why is it a problem to say that TWATW? Own it. Be proud of who you are. It's not fair to lie to people and it's not fair to make women and girls a subset of our own sex.

Also the idea that only nice trans identified people are "real" trans people, and that as soon as a self identified (and even socially transitioned!) TW like Karen White commits a horrific crime suddenly they aren't really trans they're just mentally ill men, really showcases the intellectual dishonesty going on here. If "trans" is really just an adjective to describe a different type of woman then it shouldn't make any difference. When the often wheeled out mythical predatory lesbian commits a crime does she suddenly stop being a woman and become a mentally ill man? Did Myra Hindley stop being a woman after her atrocities and get reclassified as a mentally ill man? Of course not, because you know that being female isn't something that changes according to your actions. If transwomen are defined solely by self identification then Karen White is every bit as trans as your nice trans friend. If TW are literally W then Karen White is as much a "real woman" after he raped all those hospital patients and prison inmates as he was before he did those things. The "no true scotsman" fallacy is the height of intellectual dishonesty, but the only alternative is to say that people like KW are and always have been women and that placing them in the women only spaces which allowed them to rape those women was the right thing to do. Like all religious/pseudo religious belief systems, you can either cherry pick the non abhorrent bits and end up with a logically incoherent dishonest mess, or you can subscribe to the whole lot and hold a set of beliefs that are morally indefensible. Or you can be an atheist and reject the lot until such time as someone meets the burden of proof required for you to start believing what they're saying.

I’ve actually waded through this whole thread to find what the OP wished to discuss. There’s certainly a debate going on, but where is the OP?
After several courteous responses, the OP said this is an echo chamber of self-declared enemies voices , engaged in a contest to see who hates ‘us lot’ the most and then accused people of making assumptions. And then apparently flounced off.

Nearly 300 comments now, and none of them that I’ve seen are abusive. Is the OP disappointed that people politely said “OK, here we are, let’s talk”?

@GinUnicorn

I’d be called a terf but I do consider myself trans inclusive. I support trans rights to housing, medication employment without discrimination. I would join then to prevent human rights abuse. However I don't believe TM are men or TW are women.

I used to say it though. I like you had trans friends and saw them as their assigned gender. I also wanted to be kind. Even though I know biologically it’s a lie I wanted to include marginalised trans women.

A few things changed this. Partially mumsnet. I came to the feminist boards believing everyone was transphobic. Instead I saw very real concerns and empathy.

I then did the research and found despite my wonderful friend being a woman in my eyes a huge amount of Tw never have surgery. It made me realise essentially I was supporting someone with male genitalia having access to vulnerable women. The more I looked here and Twitter the more very valid concerns I uncovered.

I personally don’t care about toilets but other women’s consent is not mine to give.

Should women have the right to l:
Single sex spaces such as
Changing without encountering a penis
Toilets
Hospital wards

Should we have the right to smear tests by a woman not someone who identifies

Should women’s sport be protected.

Ultimately if we can’t be clear about what a woman is how can we fight sexism. Women are oppressed worldwide because of our reproductive biology.

Collapsing two distinct demographic groups ie women and trans women helps no one. The best thing in my mind is spaces for apl

Pretty much where i am

Its the unfairness of certain things I can’t stand

And a lot of those things probably have nothing to do with actual transpeople...just the made up bollocks of people trying to be helpful

@WheresMyAlex

Trans women are trans women. If they were simply women, they wouldn’t have had to transition to anything or from anything would they? Trans people should absolutely be able to live their lives as they choose without facing abuse or discrimination, but that does not include the erosion of women’s rights. Men can transition to living life as a trans women, they cannot transition to being biologically female.

Exactly this. One of my favourite articles also outlines my thoughts on this. TWATW.

peacenews.info/node/9171/trans-women-are-trans-women

Yes of course they are disappointed. They were probably told to start a thread on mumsnet by some shady organisation and grab screenshots of the vile transphobic abuse that would ensue.
. When that didn't happen and people offered them reasoned and polite debate...they ducked off.

The sad thing is there is nothing wrong with being a trans woman. They are valid but trying to colonise a space for a different demographic is the route of this conflict.

I can’t see any alternative but a third space for everyone’s safety and comfort.

@LokiOdinson

And that is that they don't have two X chromosomes and therefore cannot be biological women. And there ain't anything anybody can do or say to change that.

I don't know many people, trans women or otherwise, that disagree with that. It might be painful for them to hear it constantly yelled at them because of dysphoria but I've never seen anybody personally say that outside of articles designed to create outrage.

Well what I’ve learned from this thread is that when people say ‘trans women are women’ what they actually mean is ‘transwomen are women (well, not really obviously but if I know them personally and want to #bekind then I’m willing to go along with it because it’s just easier) but that some transwomen aren’t women because they’re not true transwomen because they make everyone else look bad’- is that about right OP?

I think that's pretty much it, yes, and I was going to say something similar in response to this quoted post.

It really is the Emperor's new clothes.

And the OP also shows why I disagree with being 'allowed' to misgender Karen White - a woman is anyone who identifies as a woman and to deny someone's gender identity is transphobic, even if they're a rapist. You can't have it both ways.

I find it quite interesting though to see how individual opinion is formed. I have no problems with posters coming to discuss the topic of this thread. I DO have a problem with people who come to these boards with the intention to censure and scold.

Of course people are going to ask for reasons why you hold this view. It is exactly the same as if you started a parking thread and asked the legality of parking across someone’s driveway. Or Brexit, or religion. To suggest that people should not ask those questions is just continuing the shut down of debate. It is continuing to say ‘shut up you wimmin! You don’t know what you are talking about!’

It is impossible for me to see these people as men

That's fine - I get it, but just because they're not men doesn't automatically make them women.