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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TWAW

999 replies

Billi77 · 28/06/2020 22:15

Thought it might be an idea to start a thread for women who support TWAW. I understand ‘Feminism chat’ should also include us and give us our own space?

OP posts:
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TheProdigalKittensReturn · 29/06/2020 10:59

It's a sign that Rowling's statements and other recent events have them in a panic, the uptick in monitoring and attempts to goad women here into saying something bannable. Almost as if it's started to dawn on them that they aren't going to be able to keep the public in the dark for much longer.

Billi77 · 29/06/2020 11:02

Good morning!
I haven’t posted because I was either asleep or working or looking after my DD. I do these things alone.
I have reread some of the posts and have found some very interesting statements, such as the possibility of identifying TW as TW. This isn’t exclusionary or hostile. In sports, for example, Such distinctions to need to made.
As for the Karen White case, a mentally ill rapist was allowed into a women’s prison with a penis. This should never have happened and shouldn’t happen; the prison system needs to be held reapons. Whether Karen White identified as a woman in order to rape women is a very important to ask. But I didn’t start this thread to talk about a rapist.
There are no clear cut answers or solutions, which is precisely why this debate is ongoing and so inflammatory. Every instance of an individual who feels the need to change their gender will be different.
Another thing I have taken away from this is some people’s utter immovability and hostility. It feels like being ganged up on by men who know better and aggressively mansplained. I will dismiss that kind of aggression as I have always done. Hope you understand.

OP posts:
OldCrone · 29/06/2020 11:04

@Doyoumind

If people are being deleted, it's a sign that you are being reported, which is a sign that the thread is being monitored for these kinds of opportunities because 3 strikes and you're out.
Not every deletion counts as a strike. The last time I asked why a post of mine had been deleted, in the reply from MNHQ they said that it wasn't a strike. I think if you get a strike you will also get an email from MNHQ when they delete the post telling you this. I can't be totally sure of this, because I've never received a deletion notification from MNHQ, but that was my understanding at the time they brought in the special new rules for this part of the site.
Michelleoftheresistance · 29/06/2020 11:04

I'm not really interested in debating it tbh. If you believe TWAW that's your right, I don't share it but it's a free country, and I believe in freedom of belief and freedom of speech and that different beliefs and faiths should be free to live alongside each other.

Female only spaces however must be retained for females only because of the needs specific to their biological class, and because it is an appalling act of injustice and exclusion to block females from any provision in order to give males access to both provisions. Not all females need female only spaces, a third space that's gender neutral will work fine, but it is not ok to remove female humans' rights or language or recognition as a class or access to public spaces and services to benefit a small group of males.

Believe what you want. Don't trash other people's rights. We'll all get along fine.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 29/06/2020 11:06

1/10, even poorer than the previous efforts.

Kit19 · 29/06/2020 11:08

if TWAW no debate

anyone who says they are a TW is one

you dont get to say they're not just because you think they're to paraphrase 'mad bad and danerous to know'

acceptance with question

if karen white says they're a woman then they are
if J "wax my balls" Yaniv says they're a woman then they are
if Pip Bunce says they a woman 3 days a week then they are
If Kate Dolawski says they're a woman then they are

we cant tell (to quote you) "mentally ill rapists" apart from TW because guess what? men presenting as a woman dont have signs on their head sayng "Im a rapist" or "I'm lovely"

if TWAW because they say they are then they all are not just the ones we like

and that's the bloody problem!!

Mermoose · 29/06/2020 11:10

I have reread some of the posts and have found some very interesting statements, such as the possibility of identifying TW as TW. This isn’t exclusionary or hostile. In sports, for example, Such distinctions to need to made.
Then I respectfully (genuinely respectfully) wonder what you mean when you say TWAW.

But I didn’t start this thread to talk about a rapist.
But male rapists being placed in women's prisons is an outcome of the idea that TWAW. This is like saying 'I believe Brexit is a good idea' but then saying you don't want to talk about how customs will be affected.

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 29/06/2020 11:11

But @Billi77 the point many here are trying to make us that we do not know how you define a woman and that they would like to discuss that.

Many TRAs want a woman to be a self identified woman just because they say they are, they are. And with the law behind them enable them to enter female spaces.

The proposition above makes it impossible for the prison system to prevent Karen Whites and it seems that you would like to prevent similar incidents happening again?

How can that be prevented with the full force of the law behind self ID?

HH160bpm · 29/06/2020 11:13

It feels like being ganged up on by men who know better and aggressively mansplained. I will dismiss that kind of aggression as I have always done. Hope you understand.

We feel rather similarly about having girl/womanhood splained to us. We can’t ignore it because our critical sex based rights are being hobbled.

totallyyesno · 29/06/2020 11:17

Every instance of an individual who feels the need to change their gender will be different.
You can't base laws on assessing every individual. It just won't work. That is one of the reasons why we have single-sex spaces. We know that not all men attack women, but statistically the people who attack women are overwhelmingly men.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 29/06/2020 11:18

It would be awfully convenient to brush the rapists that the TWAW line allows into women's spaces under the carpet, wouldn't it? Unfortunately those of us who actually care about the wellbeing of women aren't going to allow that to happen.

MondayYogurt · 29/06/2020 11:20

Morning OP

Another thing I have taken away from this is some people’s utter immovability and hostility. It feels like being ganged up on by men who know better and aggressively mansplained. I will dismiss that kind of aggression as I have always done. Hope you understand.

I agree that being called a c-word, bitch, hag etc, being threatened with rape, with 'TERF genocide', the stalking behaviour, the calls for firing, and the glee when a GC person dies - is all very aggressive and frankly disturbing.
That sort of response remains firmly on one side of the debate.

TWAW
GinUnicorn · 29/06/2020 11:23

A question no one is ever willing to answer is how many women being raped as a result of TW are women narrative? How many Karen Whites are too many? Bearing in mind women in prison are some of the most vulnerable.

Impatiens · 29/06/2020 11:24

It feels like being ganged up on by men who know better and aggressively mansplained. I will dismiss that kind of aggression as I have always done. Hope you understand

This kind of talk is so common from the TWAW side isn't it? Just taking something and turning it round with no justification. Billi77 you come onto a feminism forum, with largely female posters, and accuse those who are asking for clarification of behaving like men? That is very 'bad faith' indeed.

It's the way women have always been shut down by men - 'don't raise your voice/don't interrupt my lies with facts/don't be so 'aggressive', it isn't feminine'

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 29/06/2020 11:26

"TWAW" is what allowed Karen White to happen, and it's about time those chanting it took responsibility for that.

Ninkanink · 29/06/2020 11:27

@Kit19

if TWAW no debate

anyone who says they are a TW is one

you dont get to say they're not just because you think they're to paraphrase 'mad bad and danerous to know'

acceptance with question

if karen white says they're a woman then they are
if J "wax my balls" Yaniv says they're a woman then they are
if Pip Bunce says they a woman 3 days a week then they are
If Kate Dolawski says they're a woman then they are

we cant tell (to quote you) "mentally ill rapists" apart from TW because guess what? men presenting as a woman dont have signs on their head sayng "Im a rapist" or "I'm lovely"

if TWAW because they say they are then they all are not just the ones we like

and that's the bloody problem!!

Yes.

The lack of critical faculty and the cognitive dissonance is quite something to behold.

It really is not difficult to grasp that c follows b follows a.

Except apparently that really is an extremely difficult notion for quite a number of people. Abstract reasoning ability is woefully lacking, and so glaringly obvious in its absence.

If TWAW in law, then all TWAW. You cannot have it both ways.

There is a reason why women are having to push back so forcefully on this.

It’s not about those men who aren’t predatory, rapists, killer. It never is.

Tens of thousands of women and girls in this country are harmed in some way by men every year. Millions and millions throughout the world. Those men should not be allowed into women’s spaces, regardless of how they identify, what they feel like, what they want, how they look or choose to dress, or what title they have thought of to describe themselves, or misappropriated.

As there is absolutely no way of sorting the good from the indifferent from the very bad indeed, all men must be excluded.

Even if there was a way to sort and define and establish that all the relevant men were good, decent, kind men, they still should not be allowed to enter women’s spaces, because a male presence, however benign, is very directly harmful to a certain number of women. A male presence, however benign, is not comfortable for women and girls in their very private, vulnerable spaces. Decent men all know this. Which is why they do not want to be in women’s spaces.

It makes no difference what the individual thinks or feels or wishes to be true. It does not make it true. It does not negate biological fact, nor material reality.

It does not matter how they dress, what they look like, whether they have taken hormones, had surgery (very few do, in fact) or whatever else the case may be.

Sex matters. Biology matters. Objective reality matters.

Women do NOT have to have suffered sexual abuse, predatory behaviour, violence, rape or in fact any harm at all, in order to be entitled to protection from potentially suffering those things. It is enough to say no, I am not okay with this. I do not consent. My daughters do not consent. My sisters, my mother, my friends, women I don’t know and will never meet, do not consent. NO.

Women do not want men in their spaces. The vast majority of men do not want to be in women’s spaces.

That does not take away from the rights of transgender individuals. They have every right to live peacefully without fear from harm. But they cannot gain that end by appropriating spaces that are sex-segregated in order to protect women’s dignity, privacy and safety.

Even if you no longer have a penis, you are biologically still a man. That truth might be painful, but we all have to deal with many painful truths.

You are entitled to a safe space; you have a right to peaceful existence without harm or fear of harm.

But you are not entitled to my safe space and my protections in law, nor those of my daughters, nor those of any other woman.

HH160bpm · 29/06/2020 11:31

Women - Why won’t you realise you can’t say no seems to be at the root of all the vitriol. We had to fight for that right, do you really think we will give it up? We know what it means.

GinUnicorn · 29/06/2020 11:31

@Ninkanink this 100%

Billi77 · 29/06/2020 11:37

Karen White was a rapist and pedophile with severe mental illness . Karen White was masquerading as a trans woman in order to rape more women. Karen White should never have entered a womens prison.

Would you put trans women with no history of rape charges into male prisons?

OP posts:
LastTrainEast · 29/06/2020 11:39

Billi77 "I feel that welcoming them into feminist and LGB circles.... "

Well a man can be a feminist of course, but you shouldn't assume a transwoman has to be gay as the two things are not related. A transwoman might be straight and might not appreciate the implication.

He could be gay or Bi (obviously not Lesbian) but that's for him to say.

You were only talking about transwoman I notice. Transmen matter too, but are frequently forgotten by people who are sure TWAW.

Impatiens · 29/06/2020 11:39

Karen White was masquerading as a trans woman in order to rape more women

How do you tell the difference between someone who is 'genuinely' trans and someone who is 'masquerading'?

Winesalot · 29/06/2020 11:40

Billi77

This is where you don't get to pick and choose who is trans and who is not. So, no. Transwomen should be placed in facilities with transwomen if there is one available or with males if not.

Women are NOT support humans for protecting males who believe they are female and it is probably time to realise that this is exactly what activists are doing with their sloganing.

merrymouse · 29/06/2020 11:40

Would be grateful if somebody could direct me to the part of this thread where somebody who believes that 'TWAW' explains what 'woman' means.

Thank you.

cantdothisnow1 · 29/06/2020 11:41

would you put trans women with no history of rape in male prisons no this is an example of why third spaces are needed in prisons.

Why on earth do you keep saying that Karen White is not a woman. If TWAW then you can't exclude Karen on the basis that she is not the right kind of transwoman.

Why do you keep ignoring the fact that the TWAW mantra does put women and girls at risk as evidenced by Karen White and Katy Dolotowski?

HH160bpm · 29/06/2020 11:41

Karen White was put in a women’s prison because that’s what the guidelines said should happen and not doing it would have been discriminatory.

What do you think the guidelines should be? I’d go for clear, simple to follow and underpinned with an impact assessment.