TWAW

[Billi77]

Thought it might be an idea to start a thread for women who support TWAW. I understand ‘Feminism chat’ should also include us and give us our own space?

@LokiOdinson
Did you really cherry pick one thing from my reply and claim that was the entire point of the post?

That's what I thought, why did the rest of what you said get ignored?

Unless people are actually willing to discuss this in good faith without trying to throw 'gotchas' that aren't even worth a look because they've been covered multiple times by people more eloquent than me and trying to cherry-pick my responses to make me look like a bad person or like I'm saying things I'm not saying, I'm not willing to respond any further.

Please have a good night, though, regardless of your stance on this.

A good portion of what I saw was people engaging in bad faith, like "oh, go on then, do xyz and prove it to us"

How is it 'bad faith' to ask for proof of something as controversial as TWAW? What you call 'bad faith' is actually questioning. Do you accept everything people tell you 'in good faith', just because they believe it themselves?

Can you codify belief into law? Will you mandate that people can transition from one sex to the other and must be treated accordingly? That children who fail to conform to sex role stereotypes are to be taught they were born in the wrong body & will be treated with drugs and surgery? How will you punish the non believers? The heretics.

Human history is replete with examples of what happens when beliefs are codified into law. It never ends well for women and girls.

That's what I thought, why did the rest of what you said get ignored?

Because no one is obligated to talk about what you want them to talk about, is my guess.

Because no one is obligated to talk about what you want them to talk about, is my guess

That's fair enough, but it did seem cherry picked and completely ignored the rest of what was said.

@Pertella

So how are you making the distinction between the type of transwoman who is a woman and the type of transwoman who is a man?

I’m still confused about this bit @Billi77.

How do you decided that Karen White is male but the trans women you know are not Male?

Is it because you don’t know Karen and you do know your friends ? Surely it’s not “ knowing Billi” that’s the factor that makes people change sex? Otherwise how would that work for every other trans person in The world who doesn’t know you?

If it because Karen is a convicted rapist and your friends are not ? If so, does that mean that no one with a criminal record can change sex? Or just some of them ? What kind of crimes mean that a person can’t Change sex ?

Is it about niceness ? Nice men can become women but nasty men can’t?

I’m struggling to understand what your position is.

Is that an argument to start people who know they're trans from an early age to start treatment before puberty hits so they don't have an adult advantage which people understandably don't like?

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains do you really believe that children can "know they're trans" before puberty? And that the ones who think they know that are never mistaken?

I agree @Billi77? I support trans women. TWAW. So here’s the thread...
A contrast to all the other threads / echo chambers in the “feminism chat” forum obviously disagree.

Apart from a lot of very important points made above I personally am very concerned about some very literal and näive young people who actually believe that that TWAW is the truth and that modern medical science is capable changing people's sex. I have come across them on twitter and in real life. Children are also being taught this stuff in school and doctors do not seem to be telling candidates the truth either.

When we are talking about serious life-limiting drugs and surgery that as often as not goes wrong, to my mind we absolutely need to educate people. Some times you have to be cruel to be kind.

I saw someone who appeared to be a very enthusiastic young ally on Twitter declare that people's chromosomes change during transition once. Often the most enthusiastic cheerleaders are the ones who understand least about what the whole process entails on a medical and biological level.

Trans women are adult human males and already have their own sex category.

Why do adult males need women's rights when they are biology based, just like our oppression?

I see the Karen White story as another horrific story about a male rapist rather than a story about a trans woman

OP, can you please explain how Karen White is not a woman if TWAW?

"Also, trans rights are different for very obvious reasons. This thread is one of many reasons as to why they're relevant - because unless people accept them as women, they'll abuse them as trans women (or trans men, which I don't see very often.)"

Most people aren't going to "abuse" them (in whatever sort of way) regardless of whether they think they are authentic women or not.

I think it might indeed make a difference in some cases that people wouldn't act bad towards them if they viewed them as authentic women; but that's down to the behaviour and bad character of particular individuals.

Anyway, we can't believe things just because it would have certain beneficial consequences if broadly applied. (As I imagine you would agree with.)

Children are also being taught this stuff in school and doctors do not seem to be telling candidates the truth either.

This is a heartbreaking story about a girl who wanted to be a boy and was put on puberty blockers.

“They promise you that your breasts will disappear, that your voice will be deeper, that I would look and sound more like a boy. For me, that was the best thing that could have happened,” he said.

Only, Jacob found that wasn’t what happened at all. Far from becoming one of the lads, as he’d hoped, he felt even more alienated from them as their physiques changed and Jacob’s remained the same.

He claims: “My Tavistock worker was saying to me, ‘once you have the testosterone, you’ll be a boy’.

Regardless of whether that was what was actually said, it's what the child understood. This child was sold a lie that it was possible to change sex.

Regardless of whether that was what was actually said, it's what the child understood. This child was sold a lie that it was possible to change sex.

I don't see anything kind about setting kids up to fail.

Is your belief that TWAW based on spiritual conviction rather then proof?

If there is proof, please can you demonstrate that proof.

If there is no proof, how do you propose to negotiate compromise between believers and un-believers?

When I refer to women, I refer to all women, including trans women.

There it is again, my perpetual confusion.

What is this characteristic, quality, or attribute you are labelling "women"? What is it you are pointing at when you use the word?

I'm totally on board with the other meaning of T that I've seen certain posters use (though when I commented on it they refused to acknowledge this usage) - trans when preceding this mysterious word "woman" refers to a male-bodied example of the phenomenon.

Male femininity-performers are femininity-performers. Yep. I agree 100%. Performing femininity does not render males somehow not-male. Pretty bloody sexist to assume otherwise, tbh.

What are female non-femininity-performers called, please?

Regardless of whether that was what was actually said, it's what the child understood. This child was sold a lie that it was possible to change sex.

Precisely. Both my DC and my cousin's DC were taught transgender ideology at primary school (different schools) in the same term. Mine came home and said "you won't believe the rubbish they taught us today". My cousin's DC said "if you're a girl but you like football and short hair then you might really be a boy and you can go to the doctor and they'll give you medicine and you'll grow a willy".

Now I am fairly sure the teacher did not actually say that a girl can grow a penis, but if you're teaching ten-year-olds that if you like the wrong things you could have been born in the wrong body and you can get treatment so that you can change sex, then that's exactly how some children will interpret what they've been told.

And that's dangerous nonsense in more ways than one, as Jacob's case so sadly illustrates.

@TheProdigalKittensReturn

I saw someone who appeared to be a very enthusiastic young ally on Twitter declare that people's chromosomes change during transition once. Often the most enthusiastic cheerleaders are the ones who understand least about what the whole process entails on a medical and biological level.

I saw one declare with conviction that the Tavistock conducts thorough tests to find out if their patient has a female or male brain before allowing them to transition.

So OP, sorry if I missed it but "primogeniture". What's your views on this and why for TW & TM?

OP - can my daughters have a word to describe their own experience?

You see, I live in a compound (not U.K.), & the local minimarket is just down the road. My teenage dc walk down most days to buy family groceries or treats for themselves.

Somehow, weirdly, it's only the younger two who get catcalls & abusive sexual comments from passing drivers. I have no explanation for this, as it seems to happen even though both the dc I consider to be female routinely don oversize hoodies over their jeans & tshirts, in an attempt to make their sex less obvious.

Bizarrely, their older sibling, whom I'd describe as male, encounters none of this.

Could my younger two children identify as male & avoid this? Or is there something about them that makes them inherently more likely to receive this sort of hassle?

"if you're a girl but you like football and short hair then you might really be a boy and you can go to the doctor and they'll give you medicine and you'll grow a willy"

I always wonder how much of this is the result of straight up lies told to children and how much of it is the "education" provided having been thought up by people who've apparently never spoken to a child in their lives before.

What’s wrong with accepting transwomen as transwomen (and transmen as transmen), though? Why do you have to pigeonhole them as men or women without recognising them as what they implicitly are?

Do you accept a seahorse, ladybird or jellyfish as valid creatures in their own right or do you deny their right to their widely-recognised dignified statuses as such, purely on the basis that, if you isolate the second constituent of their commonly-understood compound names, they are clearly different from other creatures that are commonly known just by those standalone constituents?

Nobody is saying that horses, birds and fish are better/worse or more/less valid than seahorses, ladybirds or jellyfish – they’re just distinct from each other in one or more fundamental ways, hence the differing names. Similarly, why ever would a transman or transwoman be reluctant to own the accepted neutral description of what they are rather than trying to compartmentalise themselves into any other subset of people who share similarities but also have a few very fundamental differences?

@Billi77

I don’t feel the same about everyone who claims to be trans, no. I see the Karen White story as another horrific story about a male rapist rather than a story about a trans woman I don’t know enough about Yaniv to hold any strong opinions. I try not to engage in stories about mentally ill individuals who have entered to debate to enable a wider angle on things.

Can you explain how you are able to differentiate between male rapists and trans women?

If you can differentiate can you explain how, on the surface, one could differentiate on appearance alone?

Do you understand that if you believe TWAW then you cannot pick and choose who fits into that?