TWAW

[Billi77]

Thought it might be an idea to start a thread for women who support TWAW. I understand ‘Feminism chat’ should also include us and give us our own space?

and now feel there is no point in competing against people who have benefited from male puberty?

this is a genuine question, thinking aloud (no, seriously before anyone starts)
Is that an argument to start people who know they're trans from an early age to start treatment before puberty hits so they don't have an adult advantage which people understandably don't like?
It seems a no win situation as too early, messing with kids growth but too late they've gone through puberty and what that entails.

On personal experience it is mostly via having women throughout my life who have transitioned. It is impossible for me to see these people as men.

As a matter of interest, did you know them pre transition? Are you related to any of them in anyway? Do any of them have children or were they married pre transition?

@PamDenick and which part of it made you think I needed your patronising response which I see as nothing but a continuation of the gaslighting I've experienced.

And tell me where in my post I said all trans people are like this. And tell me why they keep coming out to the big bad transphobe PLEASE?

If you've suffered abuse. Why dont you also tell me what youd want done if your abuser suddenly declared himself female and demanded you refer to everything that happened to you as though another woman did it. And that you no longer had any sex based protection from him either. Anything further would be treated as though another woman was doing it.

Wouldnt you want them to psychologically evaluate him to prove he wasnt actually trans and is doing this in order to be able to abuse you and steal more of your identity?

What exactly about the things I listed stars all trans people with the same brush?

Why dont you value our sex based protections enough to even have a minimum requirement to join us?

On personal experience it is mostly via having women throughout my life who have transitioned. It is impossible for me to see these people as men.

I don’t feel the same about everyone who claims to be trans, no.

So there are 2 groups of transwomen.

One who you cannot see as men, and one who you don't feel the same about.

What is the difference between these two groups?

It is interesting that you "cannot see them as men" - this just means you don't want to put them in a "man" box.

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains
... it means don’t include them at all
Sports should be separated by biological sex.
Because sport is based on the ability of ones bodies, dictated by their sex

It's pretty awful to be telling Milotic that she's responding to the abuse the experienced incorrectly, Pam.

Also, in terms of society, do you think it is possible for men to now present as feminine - eg wear a dress and make but to NOT be labeled as trans but merely men comfortable enough with their own identity to declare themselves as men and for society to accept them as men?

Or do they have to be viewed as trans even if they don't view themselves as trans?

Do you think there has been a growing intolerance for men to dress as they wish? By that I mean, have we rolled back from the 70s and 80s fashion of Bowie and Boy George?

Maybe it's "performing femininity" but I'm happy to be contradicted if that is not the case?

This is certainly what I see they're pointing at when they use the word in the TWAW mantra. I too would appreciate some clarity on whether that's the intent. Because if it is, then they've just kicked me out of class Woman in order to make room for males.

#letmenbefeminineiftheywanttowithoutexilingthemfrommanhood

It's pretty awful to be telling Milotic that she's responding to the abuse the experienced incorrectly, Pam.

I think it's the scenario where its most common for women to be told "Yes dear, but of course they're not all like that."

Sports should be separated by biological sex
Because sport is based on the ability of ones bodies, dictated by their sex

OK, can appreciate that and agree

I do know what the T part of the acronym means though; Lemonade has very helpfully clarified that through usage on previous occasions.

It means 'non-biological'.

So... Non-biological femininity-performers are femininity-performers.

Are we talking robots here?

@Milotic
Not sure if we're talking at cross-purposes.

My last post was referring to Emma Watson stating that TWAW.
Is that how you interpreted it too? Or are we talking about different things?

But then there are the men who perform femininity and don't say they're women, so it's more like non biological femininity performers who identify exclusively as femininity performers?

Seem to me that calling men men and women women and letting everyone wear what they like, have whatever sorts of interests they happen to have etc would be simpler and more inclusive.

On ‘performing femininity’, the structures of the RL test are implicated - a transwoman I know disclosed she decided to stop her motorcycle racing hobby because it was too masculine, even though it was an absolute passion. And in virtually the same breath, showed me her wardrobe of thigh length fake leather boots and rubber dresses and invited me to the rubber ball (while asking for advice on nail polish).
I’m 49 and last performed femininity by wearing nail polish 21 years ago in my wedding day. In societal terms, transwomen fairly often claim they are better at womanning than women.
Maybe it’s because in all except one case, I have known the trans people pre and post transition (and in one case detransition). I see them all by biology. 🤷‍♀️
I’m not advocating for GRC or RL test in any shape or form btw. I’d fail the RL test myself despite having given birth 3 times.

think it's the scenario where its most common for women to be told "Yes dear, but of course they're not all like that."

Even when I make it clear that my concern is also for the people being treated incorrectly themselves.

I have an identity disorder myself. I know how damaging it is to get this stuff wrong. Absolutely nobody can tell me I dont get it or I'm anti trans. I'm not. I'm pro finding the correct path and I'm sorry but for a LOT of these symptoms that these middle aged men are displaying that is treatment for a mental illness.

Oh it's the abusive Lesbian trope being rolled out.

Did you really cherry pick one thing from my reply and claim that was the entire point of the post? It's a fact that I've had friends abused by their girlfriends. I've also had friends abused by their boyfriends and I've spoken to people abused by trans women, all accounts of which I believe.

Abuse is more prominent towards females, but trans women are also at more pronounced risk than men of domestic and targeted abuse. It's wrong to ignore that because it doesn't fit your agenda, as it would be wrong for me to ignore that yes, some people do claim to be trans women in order to gain access to women's prisons. I don't think they should be allowed in those cases, but I'm of the belief that the prison system needs a huge overhaul anyway in order to actually be functional.

@PamDenick I think I tagged the wrong person

It just seems like such a waste of time for you and everybody else who attempted to engage with you in good faith.

A good portion of what I saw was people engaging in bad faith, like "oh, go on then, do xyz and prove it to us"

and the quoted post above where I stated something and it got completely taken out of context to portray me as a bad person making lesbophobic claims.

I always do it late at night it's because I notice names after comments and mix up who I'm talking to and get completely lost

If transwomen are women why aren't they just called women? Also, on the same basis, what is the meaning of the word transwoman? Surely, if you believe TWAW then you should really be concerned about women's rights? And you wouldn't be remotely concerned with trans rights?

@Milotic OK - I can't follow what's going on here, so I'm going to bed.

Surely, if you believe TWAW then you should really be concerned about women's rights? And you wouldn't be remotely concerned with trans rights?

When I refer to women, I refer to all women, including trans women. It's relevant in spaces like this to specify trans women because there's a certain word not allowed that's a descriptor for non-trans women, and I'm easily willing to follow the rules of this forum.

Also, trans rights are different for very obvious reasons. This thread is one of many reasons as to why they're relevant - because unless people accept them as women, they'll abuse them as trans women (or trans men, which I don't see very often.)