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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Glinner thing

359 replies

JohnnyW2001 · 27/06/2020 15:12

Hello! Yes, I'm a dreaded new user, and I registered here just to reply to @glinner's post. I don't wish to gloat or insult. I just wanted to reply to one specific point:

"a dangerous ideology that tells children it's possible to be born into the wrong body"

Unfortunately it seems I cannot reply to that thread? So I'll write what I have to say here. Hopefully it will be taken in the spirit it's intended: Non confrontational sharing of science.

The problem with the sentence I quoted is that it's scientifically unsound. Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again. There are certain physical traits that identify a female brain and a male brain.

What's especially interesting is that when you put people who claim to feel in the "wrong body" (as you put it) into brain imaging, they do indeed appear to have the wrong gendered brain for their body. There are observable unique characteristics that indicate a difference. This has been repeatedly demonstrated in studies for decades, and as our imaging technology has improved, it's only become more supported by science.

There are so many studies supporting this from the last 40 years, that it's difficult to pick one. Here's a few for you to Google (I can't seem to post links):

"Neuroimaging studies in people with gender incongruence", Kreukels, Baudewijntje, et al
"Grey and white matter volumes either in treatment-naïve or hormone-treated transgender women: a voxel-based morphometry study",
Giancarlo Spizzirri, et al

(Also, before anybody brings this up, I'm aware there are some scientists - namely Gina Rippon - who believe there is no biological brain gender, and that the entire brain is blank-slate shaped from birth. For those who are unaware, her argument is that society is what shapes female and male brains, due to the sheer elasticity of that organ, and that is why we see differences. One of the many problems with this argument is that the same gendered biological differences are also seen in animals. The exact same differences we see in humans. Society isn't playing role in rhesus monkeys.

Another is that there is measurable differences in male and female brains just 24 hours after birth.

To be brief: Scientists like Rippon, who claim there zero biological differences between male and female brains are, to put it mildly, are very much on the fringe and not the mainstream, despite the incredible amount of press they get.

Mainstream science says that when it comes to the gendered differences between our brains, biology plays a role and society plays a role -- not exactly controversial or difficult to believe.

Here's an article from Stanford Medicine which goes through the countless ways in which we have demonstrated biological gendered differences between brains over the decades, and how it cannot just be society as Rippon insists: "Two minds: The cognitive differences between men and women", Bruce Goldman at StanMed. Many of the falsehoods in Rippon's work are pointed out in Professor Simon Baron-Cohen's review of her book in The Times (March 2019), too.)

Just to be clear, I'm not making a political statement, I'm just sharing the science. And all mainstream science indicates that it is indeed biologically possible to have a female traited brain in a male traited body, and vise versa.

I will add one personal note: I have to say that this doesn't surprise me at all. Our genes are programmed to be occasionally random: Some people are born without a sense of smell, or missing limbs, or extra limbs, or whatever. So if there is such a thing as a female brain and a male brain then it makes perfect sense to me that occasionally someone would get a male brain in a female body, or vise versa.

And history has also repeatedly shown us that people who claim to be suffering from something that ultimately complicates their life in ways that anyone would rather avoid (like being gay, for example, which opens you up to persecution and complications and which historically was seen as a malady to be "cured") are usually right. These people really ARE suffering, and today we even have the science to prove that their complaint appears to be true.

Again, just to be clear, I'm not pushing any political agenda, or even suggesting the best way to address this situation, I'm just sharing the science, and hopefully appealing to your higher self. Pointing out that those who listen with compassion and empathy tend to sit on the right side of history.

Thanks.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Al1Langdownthecleghole · 27/06/2020 20:20

I reached my conclusions about this based on science and experience.

I don't care what you think OP.

DickKerrLadies · 27/06/2020 20:20

OP not back, then? Shame.

ChloeCrocodile · 27/06/2020 20:22

OP, even if we accept the idea of male brains / female brains (I don’t) can you explain the process by which a brain ends up in the wrong body? My understanding is that the brain develops as part of the body of a foetus. All the body parts (including the brain) develop from a single zygote. They don’t form separately and then get put together at birth!

The only way the “born in the wrong body” narrative works is if you mean that human souls are sexed and sometimes God puts the a soul into the wrong body. That is a totally unscientific belief. (And what kind of God is so rubbish that he makes that sort of mistake on a regular basis?!)

JackiF · 27/06/2020 20:25

Thanks for the article link Nephthia. Placemarking to find it again later. Flowers

DickKerrLadies · 27/06/2020 20:25

I was going to add something sarcastic but you know what, I can't be arsed. My poor lady brain is too tired from thinking all those womanly thoughts.

(Yeah, I know, I can't help myself. All I have is questions and sarcasm and the OP doesn't appear to be allowing questions at this lecture)

Livpool · 27/06/2020 20:30

But OP I work in IT (assume male brain?!) but I have a female body (gave birth and everything so not just my imagination!). But then I like wearing make up (female brain) bit often wear trousers (male brain).

I am so confused, sweetie

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 27/06/2020 20:35

@JohnnyW2001

Hello! Yes, I'm a dreaded new user, and I registered here just to reply to *@glinner*'s post. I don't wish to gloat or insult. I just wanted to reply to one specific point:

"a dangerous ideology that tells children it's possible to be born into the wrong body"

Unfortunately it seems I cannot reply to that thread? So I'll write what I have to say here. Hopefully it will be taken in the spirit it's intended: Non confrontational sharing of science.

The problem with the sentence I quoted is that it's scientifically unsound. Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again. There are certain physical traits that identify a female brain and a male brain.

What's especially interesting is that when you put people who claim to feel in the "wrong body" (as you put it) into brain imaging, they do indeed appear to have the wrong gendered brain for their body. There are observable unique characteristics that indicate a difference. This has been repeatedly demonstrated in studies for decades, and as our imaging technology has improved, it's only become more supported by science.

There are so many studies supporting this from the last 40 years, that it's difficult to pick one. Here's a few for you to Google (I can't seem to post links):

"Neuroimaging studies in people with gender incongruence", Kreukels, Baudewijntje, et al
"Grey and white matter volumes either in treatment-naïve or hormone-treated transgender women: a voxel-based morphometry study",
Giancarlo Spizzirri, et al

(Also, before anybody brings this up, I'm aware there are some scientists - namely Gina Rippon - who believe there is no biological brain gender, and that the entire brain is blank-slate shaped from birth. For those who are unaware, her argument is that society is what shapes female and male brains, due to the sheer elasticity of that organ, and that is why we see differences. One of the many problems with this argument is that the same gendered biological differences are also seen in animals. The exact same differences we see in humans. Society isn't playing role in rhesus monkeys.

Another is that there is measurable differences in male and female brains just 24 hours after birth.

To be brief: Scientists like Rippon, who claim there zero biological differences between male and female brains are, to put it mildly, are very much on the fringe and not the mainstream, despite the incredible amount of press they get.

Mainstream science says that when it comes to the gendered differences between our brains, biology plays a role and society plays a role -- not exactly controversial or difficult to believe.

Here's an article from Stanford Medicine which goes through the countless ways in which we have demonstrated biological gendered differences between brains over the decades, and how it cannot just be society as Rippon insists: "Two minds: The cognitive differences between men and women", Bruce Goldman at StanMed. Many of the falsehoods in Rippon's work are pointed out in Professor Simon Baron-Cohen's review of her book in The Times (March 2019), too.)

Just to be clear, I'm not making a political statement, I'm just sharing the science. And all mainstream science indicates that it is indeed biologically possible to have a female traited brain in a male traited body, and vise versa.

I will add one personal note: I have to say that this doesn't surprise me at all. Our genes are programmed to be occasionally random: Some people are born without a sense of smell, or missing limbs, or extra limbs, or whatever. So if there is such a thing as a female brain and a male brain then it makes perfect sense to me that occasionally someone would get a male brain in a female body, or vise versa.

And history has also repeatedly shown us that people who claim to be suffering from something that ultimately complicates their life in ways that anyone would rather avoid (like being gay, for example, which opens you up to persecution and complications and which historically was seen as a malady to be "cured") are usually right. These people really ARE suffering, and today we even have the science to prove that their complaint appears to be true.

Again, just to be clear, I'm not pushing any political agenda, or even suggesting the best way to address this situation, I'm just sharing the science, and hopefully appealing to your higher self. Pointing out that those who listen with compassion and empathy tend to sit on the right side of history.

Thanks.

Kewl.

So why don’t doctors use brain imaging as a diagnostic tool for gender incongruence? And why don’t trans people campaign for that?

And how do you explain detransitioners? Because more FtMtF detransitioners appear on YouTube all the time.

WomaninBoots · 27/06/2020 20:41

@ChloeCrocodile

OP, even if we accept the idea of male brains / female brains (I don’t) can you explain the process by which a brain ends up in the wrong body? My understanding is that the brain develops as part of the body of a foetus. All the body parts (including the brain) develop from a single zygote. They don’t form separately and then get put together at birth!

The only way the “born in the wrong body” narrative works is if you mean that human souls are sexed and sometimes God puts the a soul into the wrong body. That is a totally unscientific belief. (And what kind of God is so rubbish that he makes that sort of mistake on a regular basis?!)

Yes. Exactly this first paragraph.

By what mechanism? At what pont during the development of the embryo do the cells that become the central nervous system go on a completely different sexed pathway than the cells in the rest of the body? They don't do they? They keep their XX or XY chromosomes and swim in exactly the same hormonal soup as every other cell in that developing human...

Even if there is some malfunction in brain development that means a man's brain image has some more female typical patterns to it or whatever the studies show... I still don't want his dick in the women's showers at the gym. Or his rapey behaviour in a women's prison. Or his physically stronger body in women's sports.

FFS. It's not hard. It really isnt.

Nephthia · 27/06/2020 20:44

@JackiF

Thanks for the article link Nephthia. Placemarking to find it again later. Flowers
No worries! :)
ErrolTheDragon · 27/06/2020 20:56

This thread is making me wish that the new quote post function could detect mansplaining overlong posts anywhere other than on the Relationships board and reprint just the first and last paragraphs with 'blah, blah, blah' between. The OP wasn't really worth reading through the first time.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 27/06/2020 21:10

@ErrolTheDragon

This thread is making me wish that the new quote post function could detect mansplaining overlong posts anywhere other than on the Relationships board and reprint just the first and last paragraphs with 'blah, blah, blah' between. The OP wasn't really worth reading through the first time.
Soz!

It did occurs to me that it was a load of waffle-bollox, but nonetheless I thought it would be fun to quote it for theatrical effect Grin

It puts me in mind of when Bret Easton Ellis wrote entire chapters on Huey Lewis and the News or high end home stereo systems - let’s hope the next bit isn’t a graphic description of violence against women, eh?

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 27/06/2020 21:12

As these “female brains trapped in male bodies” Hmm have the same sexual & violent offending rate as men then single sex spaces will continue to be the easiest way to protect women & girls. Simples Smile

Voice0fReason · 27/06/2020 21:14

If a boy is born with a girl brain, why does that girl brain send the boy through boy puberty?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/06/2020 21:20

It puts me in mind of when Bret Easton Ellis wrote entire chapters on Huey Lewis and the News or high end home stereo systems - let’s hope the next bit isn’t a graphic description of violence against women, eh?

Oh yes, of course!

Datun · 27/06/2020 21:25

Again, just to be clear, I'm not pushing any political agenda, or even suggesting the best way to address this situation, I'm just sharing the science, and hopefully appealing to your higher self. Pointing out that those who listen with compassion and empathy tend to sit on the right side of history

That might not be the risible statement it is, if so very many transwomen weren't enthusiastically demanding that women choke to death on their dicks.

bishopgiggles · 27/06/2020 21:28

If they are women, this is part of being one. They should feel grateful for this “violence” as surely it validates their female experience?

Eeh come on, I don't think anyone believes anyone should feel grateful for violence. This helps no-one.

bluebluezoo · 27/06/2020 21:40

“Violence” in inverted commas.

What Tw interprets as violence is a woman’s everyday life.

There is a TW who likes being catcalled and groped etc because it validates their femininity. Can’t remember which one.

Cagedbirdsinging · 27/06/2020 21:49

Placemarking .

endlessginandtonic · 27/06/2020 21:50

Leaving the feeble science to be dealt with by others more qualified.
I would like to highlight that history does not have a right side.
The way we filter and view the past changes constantly.
Different cultures view history through different lenses as do people with different political, religious and ethnic backgrounds.
There isn't one constant right way of thinking about the past that all peoples have signed up to.
History is an academic discipline with all that entails.
When would this right side of history be created? But who? For Whom? It sounds more than a touch authoritarian.
The right side of history is a mythical as a unicorn but a much less pretty idea.

12boo · 27/06/2020 21:51

It is utter nonsense to suggest that a brain could end up in the wrong body.
Who put it there?
Don't you know how humans are
Formed? You have to be joking. But it's not funny.

midgebabe · 27/06/2020 22:05

They managed to show a difference in the small area of transwomen brains after lots of medication, the difference more likely be a change that occurs during transition rather than innate, as it's an area of the brain that is affected by external factors . they showed that transwomen had this feature rather than that it was a feature common across both women and transwomen

Note well that using that brain feature as the definition of women says that a significant proportion of women are actually not women ...

However their brains on average are still probabilistically more likely to be Male , because the biggest sex difference between male and female is size...

If we can not reliably sex a brain how the heck can we say that a brain is a a male or female brains? The whole bleeping point is that brains are pretty sex independent and most changes are a result of training not nature

And anyway, why so hung up on biology?

Highperbolay · 27/06/2020 22:17

There is a TW who likes being catcalled and groped etc because it validates their femininity. Can’t remember which one.

Paris Lees. Best buds with Emma Watson....

www.vice.com/en_uk/article/zn7b79/enjoying-catcalls-paris-lees-column

Furx · 27/06/2020 22:22

They managed to show a difference in the small area of transwomen brains after lots of medication, the difference more likely be a change that occurs during transition rather than innate, as it's an area of the brain that is affected by external factors . they showed that transwomen had this feature rather than that it was a feature common across both women and transwomen

I think I saw that, wasn’t it something they found only in people who spent a disproportionate amount of time thinking about themselves compared to the average.

catsies · 27/06/2020 22:26

While bodies are strictly binary, brains are very non-binary and there's really no such thing as a female brain in a male body, etc. People DO have dysphoria, but that can also be for a variety of reasons. I'm not opposed to transitioning, but it's a very extreme measure and really should be a last resort after other options have been explored. So many young people who are autistic or gay or who have endured sexual abuse get dysphoria and they need support and help - not hormones and surgery.

catsies · 27/06/2020 22:34

@Furx

They managed to show a difference in the small area of transwomen brains after lots of medication, the difference more likely be a change that occurs during transition rather than innate, as it's an area of the brain that is affected by external factors . they showed that transwomen had this feature rather than that it was a feature common across both women and transwomen

I think I saw that, wasn’t it something they found only in people who spent a disproportionate amount of time thinking about themselves compared to the average.

I thought this was a joke and laughed, but is this actually true??
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