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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Glinner thing

359 replies

JohnnyW2001 · 27/06/2020 15:12

Hello! Yes, I'm a dreaded new user, and I registered here just to reply to @glinner's post. I don't wish to gloat or insult. I just wanted to reply to one specific point:

"a dangerous ideology that tells children it's possible to be born into the wrong body"

Unfortunately it seems I cannot reply to that thread? So I'll write what I have to say here. Hopefully it will be taken in the spirit it's intended: Non confrontational sharing of science.

The problem with the sentence I quoted is that it's scientifically unsound. Female and male brains are biologically different in ways that have been observed and studied, again and again. There are certain physical traits that identify a female brain and a male brain.

What's especially interesting is that when you put people who claim to feel in the "wrong body" (as you put it) into brain imaging, they do indeed appear to have the wrong gendered brain for their body. There are observable unique characteristics that indicate a difference. This has been repeatedly demonstrated in studies for decades, and as our imaging technology has improved, it's only become more supported by science.

There are so many studies supporting this from the last 40 years, that it's difficult to pick one. Here's a few for you to Google (I can't seem to post links):

"Neuroimaging studies in people with gender incongruence", Kreukels, Baudewijntje, et al
"Grey and white matter volumes either in treatment-naïve or hormone-treated transgender women: a voxel-based morphometry study",
Giancarlo Spizzirri, et al

(Also, before anybody brings this up, I'm aware there are some scientists - namely Gina Rippon - who believe there is no biological brain gender, and that the entire brain is blank-slate shaped from birth. For those who are unaware, her argument is that society is what shapes female and male brains, due to the sheer elasticity of that organ, and that is why we see differences. One of the many problems with this argument is that the same gendered biological differences are also seen in animals. The exact same differences we see in humans. Society isn't playing role in rhesus monkeys.

Another is that there is measurable differences in male and female brains just 24 hours after birth.

To be brief: Scientists like Rippon, who claim there zero biological differences between male and female brains are, to put it mildly, are very much on the fringe and not the mainstream, despite the incredible amount of press they get.

Mainstream science says that when it comes to the gendered differences between our brains, biology plays a role and society plays a role -- not exactly controversial or difficult to believe.

Here's an article from Stanford Medicine which goes through the countless ways in which we have demonstrated biological gendered differences between brains over the decades, and how it cannot just be society as Rippon insists: "Two minds: The cognitive differences between men and women", Bruce Goldman at StanMed. Many of the falsehoods in Rippon's work are pointed out in Professor Simon Baron-Cohen's review of her book in The Times (March 2019), too.)

Just to be clear, I'm not making a political statement, I'm just sharing the science. And all mainstream science indicates that it is indeed biologically possible to have a female traited brain in a male traited body, and vise versa.

I will add one personal note: I have to say that this doesn't surprise me at all. Our genes are programmed to be occasionally random: Some people are born without a sense of smell, or missing limbs, or extra limbs, or whatever. So if there is such a thing as a female brain and a male brain then it makes perfect sense to me that occasionally someone would get a male brain in a female body, or vise versa.

And history has also repeatedly shown us that people who claim to be suffering from something that ultimately complicates their life in ways that anyone would rather avoid (like being gay, for example, which opens you up to persecution and complications and which historically was seen as a malady to be "cured") are usually right. These people really ARE suffering, and today we even have the science to prove that their complaint appears to be true.

Again, just to be clear, I'm not pushing any political agenda, or even suggesting the best way to address this situation, I'm just sharing the science, and hopefully appealing to your higher self. Pointing out that those who listen with compassion and empathy tend to sit on the right side of history.

Thanks.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
prolefeed · 27/06/2020 22:41

Isn’t Paris Lees the ex-con with a criminal record for beating up and robbing a punter when working as a gay male selling sex?
I mean, look, with all the surgery people can look very different, but I’m not sure I’d be actively including ‘what a thrill it is to receive sexual harassment and be a woman’ Paris in my debate about girl brains if I’m honest.

TorkTorkBam · 27/06/2020 22:42

I believe they found the same area in anorexics (or that's where it was first detected). People who obsess about their body overdevelop this part of the brain. It happens a lot, for example with London taxi drivers whose brains are noticeably different after they have done The Knowledge.

twoHopes · 27/06/2020 22:42

Another scientist here with golly gosh - a female brain! Johnny it appears you've had arse royally handed to you. I suspect you thought we're all silly wimmins on here but, believe it or not, some of us have actually read the bullshit studies you cite. Must try harder.

I'll leave you with this from one of the many papers that debunk the nonsense:
"One should use the term sexual dimorphism only for those aspects of differences that come in two distinct forms. As an example, they suggest male and female genitalia or X and Y chromosomes that appear in just two forms (with some exceptions). With respect to sex/gender differences, it is obvious that even very large sex/gender brain and behavioral differences are not dimorphic since the reported features overlap too much when the feature distribution for males and females is considered. They also point out that true sexual dimorphism is extremely rare in the human brain (but also in terms of behavior and cognition). As examples, they mention the very large sex/gender differences for the intermediate nucleus (InM) of the hypothalamus, which is on average twice as large in males as it is in females. However, in about a third of the cases, males and females demonstrate InMs of the same size. Thus, terms such as “female brains” or “male brains”, which are frequently used in popular writing, should not be used since it is difficult or even impossible to identify typical and dimorphic features that justify a clear sex/gender classification."

midgebabe · 27/06/2020 22:43

Damn, will have to try and find out...I think there were 2 sucessive papers from same authors , one that said oh look at this and the second that said, ah our initial interpretation was a little flawed

I think it was less laughable though, internalisation of trauma perhaps ( trauma and abuse tends to affect women more leading to a sex difference )

Alabamawhirly1 · 27/06/2020 22:49

If brains with "pink" characteristics can be seen in a male person - then that's not a female brain.

Surely all this research means it's that there are varients of brains that can be seen in both male and female people - though the "pink" brain is more common in female people.

I would also be interested to see how many gender conforming men have so called "female" brains. But I'm gonna guess we dont know because no one is looking.

twoHopes · 27/06/2020 23:00

Surely all this research means it's that there are varients of brains that can be seen in both male and female people - though the "pink" brain is more common in female people.

Exactly this. These studies that "prove" men can have female brains are actually just proving that there is no such thing as a gendered brain.

Staffori · 27/06/2020 23:12

If trans 'women' have female brains, why do so many of them post pictures of their erect penises on Twitter?

Flightofthecondor · 27/06/2020 23:13

Glad Twitter are cleaning up. As a platform it’s mainly just a place where people spew hate and bile.

Katie Hopkins, Glinner... . Who’s next? Orange Drumpf?

I like Mumsnet. Hope it won’t become a 4chan or Parler type thing with all the twitter rejects.

bluebluezoo · 27/06/2020 23:15

Say a “male” brain lights up in response to football on tv. Football very manly, lots of men, sports, etc..

What happens if that man moves to the US, where soccer is a female sport? Does the brain now light up in response to soccer and become female, as that’s what girls like?

It always surprises me on here when there’d gender discussions on the main boards. A lot of women insisting pink/blue brain exists because they have a girly girl who likes dolls and playing with make up, and a boy who likes mud and football. They have done nothing to encourage them to conform to stereotype either, it’s free will, and therefore innate.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/06/2020 07:21

^Say a “male” brain lights up in response to football on tv. Football very manly, lots of men, sports, etc..
^^
^What happens if that man moves to the US, where soccer is a female sport? Does the brain now light up in response to soccer and become female, as that’s what girls like?

Yes, exactly. I've heard liking football/soccer claimed as a sign of gender dysphoria both ways in children depending which country they live in.

DickKerrLadies · 28/06/2020 07:47

I was hoping the OP had come back over night - oh well.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/06/2020 07:49

He won't be coming back.

BaronessBrighterThanYou · 28/06/2020 08:01

Just another Saturday night then?

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 28/06/2020 08:10

Yup Erish, the idea that gender is both biologically innate and culturally relative is just one of the things that makes me think these people are too stupid to argue with.

borntobequiet · 28/06/2020 08:11

Glinner doesn’t spew hate and bile. But thanks for the image of Trump on Mumsnet.
AIBU to build a wall my neighbours don’t want.
Relationships: I like grabbing women by the pussy, why do they object?
Style and Beauty: What startling shade of fake tan is acceptable?
Pedants’ corner: How should I pronounce China?
Etc, etc. Ugh.

Alabamawhirly1 · 28/06/2020 08:16

I would say that generally speaking - men are women are different mentally. Men tend to be more sex driven and more violent. Women tend to be more empethetic and more natural parents. Obvs this is not based on scans or science, just observation and could be down to nature, nurture or both.

But...... If we accept that as true, how come transwomen still show the same high sex motivation and high aggression and violence as men - if they have lady brains. I also can't see much empathy in them either.

AsMuchUseAsAMarzipanDildo · 28/06/2020 08:25

I could point out that the OP clearly hasn’t read the actual papers they linked to, as what they show is differences between the brains of women and transwomen. Surely that kind of debunks the entire premise of their argument? 🤦‍♀️

Never mind that human brains are influenced by many, many factors - not least the gendered societal stereotypes that transgender ideology promotes. Or that even if we buy this bullshit about having a woman’s brain in a man’s body, that does absolutely nothing to address the fact that humans are binary. The existence of rare variations does nothing to disprove that. I think it’s FondOfBeetles who says something along the lines of “A baby sadly born without a fully formed leg is not taken as proof that humans aren’t bipedal”.

The “fact” that humans have gendered brains still doesn’t change the empirical reality that violent and sexual crime is overwhelmingly committed by men/penis havers. Or that so much of women’s oppression is rooted in the assumption that they have a vagina and the ability to procreate.

But let’s face it, they won’t be back. They’re not interested in hearing from us silly mums. All they wanted to do was rock up, patronise the ignorant “Karen’s“ with their wokeness and fuck off into the sunset, feeling all virtuous.

12boo · 28/06/2020 10:19

Asmuchuseasamarzipandildo
Amen

Furx · 28/06/2020 13:23

@TorkTorkBam

I believe they found the same area in anorexics (or that's where it was first detected). People who obsess about their body overdevelop this part of the brain. It happens a lot, for example with London taxi drivers whose brains are noticeably different after they have done The Knowledge.
That rings a bell, thank you.
stella47 · 28/06/2020 13:42

Good heavens, that looks very long. For some reason, as part of my Chemistry A level I had to learn to summarise a scientific article in 140 words. Just saying.

JohnnyW2001 · 28/06/2020 13:51

So... I'm a man, responding directly to one sentence another man wrote. And that is all. I wasn't addressing "women" or even a single woman (unless Glinner is now claiming to identify as female, but that seems unlikely).

It's scientifically unsound to claim that all trans people are part of "a dangerous ideology that tells children it's possible to be born into the wrong body". And that is all.

I make no claim to have any idea how to best address this issue, or how women should or shouldn't feel about it. That's really not for me to have any opinion on, and I fully understand that. Very happy to get out of the way.

OP posts:
TheId · 28/06/2020 13:54

How marvellous of you to pop back on and let all us girls know that we are wasting our breath as you were not talking to us because you only talk to other men.

Can you not see at all the staggering misogyny in not addressing any of the scientific challenge in this thread because it was posted by women

Biscuit
JohnnyW2001 · 28/06/2020 13:56

@AsMuchUseAsAMarzipanDildo

I could point out that the OP clearly hasn’t read the actual papers they linked to, as what they show is differences between the brains of women and transwomen. Surely that kind of debunks the entire premise of their argument? 🤦‍♀️

Never mind that human brains are influenced by many, many factors - not least the gendered societal stereotypes that transgender ideology promotes. Or that even if we buy this bullshit about having a woman’s brain in a man’s body, that does absolutely nothing to address the fact that humans are binary. The existence of rare variations does nothing to disprove that. I think it’s FondOfBeetles who says something along the lines of “A baby sadly born without a fully formed leg is not taken as proof that humans aren’t bipedal”.

The “fact” that humans have gendered brains still doesn’t change the empirical reality that violent and sexual crime is overwhelmingly committed by men/penis havers. Or that so much of women’s oppression is rooted in the assumption that they have a vagina and the ability to procreate.

But let’s face it, they won’t be back. They’re not interested in hearing from us silly mums. All they wanted to do was rock up, patronise the ignorant “Karen’s“ with their wokeness and fuck off into the sunset, feeling all virtuous.

Thanks for this. You make some great points. (I'll ignore the weird personal insults at the end.) I don't really believe there's a place for me in this argument, so I'll just say I read and took onboard what you wrote, and it made me think. Thanks.
OP posts:
merrymouse · 28/06/2020 13:57

But it isn't possible to be born in the wrong body.

There is no 'right' brain for a particular kind of body.

TheId · 28/06/2020 13:58

You came on a feminist talk board posting patronising mansplaining pseudoscience bollocks just so you could get hold of glinner. Seriously.

I believe he has a website if you want to have a private chat to him about your staggering scientific insights.

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